This has been discussed before here on FR, but I don't have the link to the old article. At that time, people didn't believe there was a problem with the M-16. There may indeed be a problem with the weapon jamming.
Not my area of expertise but thought some would find it interesting.
1 posted on
07/10/2003 4:36:06 PM PDT by
Aliska
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2 posted on 3/6/02 7:30 AM Pacific by grammymoon:
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2 posted on
07/10/2003 4:38:06 PM PDT by
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To: Aliska
The M-16 is the Army's standard issue weapon. Not for too much longer...
![](http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/oicw-001_s.jpg)
3 posted on
07/10/2003 4:38:40 PM PDT by
xrp
To: Aliska
Arer they made in China, or Mexico?
4 posted on
07/10/2003 4:40:38 PM PDT by
Ed_in_NJ
To: Aliska
Here's the whole article.
Several soldiers of the 507th Maintenance Company could not defend themselves or their comrades March 23 because their weapons malfunctioned while they sustained a lengthy fire attack by Iraqis near Nasiriyah, Iraq, according to a U.S. Army report on the ambush.
The weapons that jammed or otherwise failed included a M-249 machine gun called a SAW (squad automatic weapon), a .50 caliber machine gun, as well as several M-16 rifles. The M-16 is the Army's standard issue weapon.
The report is not conclusive about why up to three different kinds of weapons failed and suggests that the "malfunctions may have resulted from inadequate individual maintenance in a desert environment."
Pentagon and Fort Bliss officials declined to comment Wednesday on any aspects of the report until it is released to the public today or Friday. Nine members of the 507th died, four were wounded and another six were captured in the ambush.
Amalia Estrella, mother of Pvt. Ruben Estrella-Soto, said that although she was told June 27 about her son's death, she and her husband are not satisfied with what they were told.
"I can accept a human error because they are human; it's the desert and it's difficult. But where was the combat support?" she asked. "They took a long time to bring my son's body to me because he was supposedly shot in the head and a piece of his head was missing. They asked me to sign a paper that said I would accept my son without this body part. Now, they are telling me that when he was trying to escape from the (ambush) his vehicle struck an Iraqi tank and it was the impact that killed him, and not a gunshot."
The military report does not address whether the ammunition was sufficient for the attack that lasted 60 to 90 minutes, or whether any of the weapons had been listed as unusable previously because they had not been working properly.
Some of the Fort Bliss soldiers who experienced problems with their weapons include Cpl. Damien Luten, Spc. Joseph Hudson, Sgt. James Riley and Spc. James Grubb. A convoy that included 507th commander Capt. Troy King and other soldiers "returned fire while moving," and without specifying which soldiers and what weapons were involved, the report said "most of the soldiers in this (other) group report that they (too) experienced weapons malfunctions."
The report said Luten "attempted to return fire with the 507th's only .50 cal. machine gun, but the weapon failed." Another part of the report said "Spc. Grubb returned fire with his M-16 until wounded in both arms, despite reported jamming of his weapon" and Riley tried getting a slain 507th soldier's M-16 "since his own rifle had malfunctioned." Hudson, who was driving one of the vehicles during the attack, tried to fire his M-249 "but it malfunctioned," the report said.
Among the first to return fire were Pfc. Edward Anguiano and Sgt. George Buggs of the 3rd Forward Support Battalion, who were attached to the 507th convoy. They fired their M-249 from the rear of the Humvee they were in, but later died. Other weapons issued to the unit members were the M-9 (9 mm pistol), which is usually given to officers and senior enlisted soldiers, and the MK-19 (40 mm grenade machine gun).
Before the convoy's departure from Camp Virginia, Kuwait, "the soldiers were issued a basic combat load of ammunition for their personal weapons" (210 rounds for the M-16, 1,000 rounds for the M-249 and 45 rounds for the M-9). They were also issued ammunition for the .50 caliber machine gun and the MK-19 grenade machine gun, "however, all pyrotechnics, hand grenades, and AT-4 anti-tank weapons were consolidated and secured (locked away)," the report said.
While at Camp Virginia, the 507th had training and preparations for ambush procedures, rules of engagement (the legal rules for when and how you fight an enemy) and weapons maintenance, the report said. Although the soldiers "observed armed civilians and what appeared to be armed Iraqi soldiers at the two checkpoints ... (and) the Iraqi soldiers at the checkpoint waved to the convoy," the 507th members were prevented from firing their weapons at them unless they detected a hostile intent.
The report said the supply convoy received small arms and rocket-propelled grenade fire from all sides. Several soldiers were killed or injured as a result of gunfire or because of wrecks during the ambush.
To: Aliska
Nice to see the M16 works as well in Iraq as it did for me in VietNam.
9 posted on
07/10/2003 4:45:25 PM PDT by
templar
To: Aliska
From the article:
The report is not conclusive about why up to three different kinds of weapons failed and suggests that the "malfunctions may have resulted from inadequate individual maintenance in a desert environment."
We're talking about 3 different weapons systems here. Not just the M16. I've posted as much on another thread that I thought either inadequate maintenance or inadequate instruction or operation were at fault for this. That's the only way to explain it. These weren't infantry folk- these were clerks and mechanics. Not to knock 'em but from my own experience, the level of maintenance and knowledge of weapons was much lower among these MOS than in the combat specialties. The 50 Cal in particular is a time tested and reliable weapon. If you take care of it- it shoots.
To: Aliska
The weapons that jammed or otherwise failed included a M-249 machine gun called a SAW (squad automatic weapon), a .50 caliber machine gun, as well as several M-16 rifles. If these people couldn't keep Ma Deuce firing they know nothing about maintainance.
That leads me to believe none of the weapons was at fault.
The operators were.
So9
To: Aliska
Sounds like more of a maintance problem, the problem occurred in several weapon types, not a good sign.
someone wasn't keeping the troops on the ball, is my guess.
15 posted on
07/10/2003 4:49:40 PM PDT by
tet68
To: Aliska
The M-16 is a good reliable weapon when you take care of it. The are times when it will malfunction just like any other weapon. Improper handling, excessive carbon and dirt will make any weapon malfunction. The fact that so many weapons malfunctioned at the same time leads me to believe that they were not properly maintained. Considering the 507th is a support unit they probably placed a low priority on the maintenance of their weapons. Also, they may not of had the skills necessary to perform the proper immiediate action.
22 posted on
07/10/2003 4:55:45 PM PDT by
Ajnin
To: Aliska
Make all combat support troops in the US Army have a primary MOS of 11B and this problem will resolve itself.
24 posted on
07/10/2003 4:57:16 PM PDT by
jwalsh07
To: Aliska; *bang_list
The M-16 is a particularly cantankerous weapon favored by political operatives at the top of the chain of command and gradually altered over time to minimal combat standards. Support troops are not generally trained to the same standards as frontline combat troops which is why they frequently suffer higher causalties in frontline combat conditions.
As with most catastrophic failures, the 507th incident probably resulted from a number of incrementally small mistakes any one of which could have altered the outcome favorably had it been avoided or overcome.
I would tend to believe the individuals in that unit were unfamiliar with their weapons under the best circumstances and were thus unable to use them properly in extreme conditions.
Best regards,
26 posted on
07/10/2003 4:58:13 PM PDT by
Copernicus
(A Constitutional Republic revolves around Sovereign Citizens, not citizens around government.)
To: Aliska
I suspect a cleaning/maintenance issue here. Combat units didn't complain about large scale failures and these weapons have been in use quite some time. In a harsh environment like that, cleaning of personal weapons is critical, but it probably wasn't the highest priority in a rear echelon unit.
To: Aliska
Three different weapons. Several soldiers responsible for their own maintenance. Sounds like they didn't get the proper training. Have there been reports of other such incidences of jammed guns?
To: Aliska
At that time, people didn't believe there was a problem with the M-16 Still don't. REMFs with guns. Should have issued them pointed sticks instead. Same result, less noise.
To: Aliska
507th's weapons failed in combat, Army report says (M-16 Rifle)
Maybe one of the better brains here at freerepublic can give a citation...
...but I believe that during the time of that one horrendous sand-storm
during the drive north from Kuwait, there was one newspaper/media report
of some lowly enlisted fellow who had discovered some lubricant that was really
much better at keeping infantry weapons working (cycling) during extremely
dirty (sand-storm?) conditions; that is, much better than the standard issue.
Maybe someone can resurrect that thread and mail a copy to their local Army/Marine
recruitment station or Guard unit...just to see it gets a fair hearing.
43 posted on
07/10/2003 5:14:27 PM PDT by
VOA
To: Aliska
This is the reason the US Marine Corps makes every Marine go through combat training on a regular basis. Perhaps the Army should look at similar training.
44 posted on
07/10/2003 5:14:50 PM PDT by
Ajnin
To: Aliska
Glad to see the M-16 is still as reliable as it was in NAM! --/sarcasm off
To: Aliska
Sounds like operator error.
69 posted on
07/10/2003 5:44:43 PM PDT by
Busywhiskers
(Non entia multiplicandia sunt prater necessetatum. William Occam)
To: Shooter 2.5
bump for a later read.
104 posted on
07/11/2003 5:24:00 AM PDT by
Shooter 2.5
(Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
To: Aliska
Not to cast insults at folks who were there, but in my 32+ years in harness, I rarely saw support units ("Ash 'n Trash") who took good care of their personal weapons or who even really knew how to use them efficiently.
The tradition continues, I am afraid.
105 posted on
07/11/2003 5:37:23 AM PDT by
Redleg Duke
(Stir the pot...don't let anything settle to the bottom where the lawyers can feed off of it!)
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