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507th's weapons failed in combat, Army report says (M-16 Rifle)
El Paso Times ^ | July 10, 2003 | Diana Washington Valdez

Posted on 07/10/2003 4:36:05 PM PDT by Aliska

Several soldiers of the 507th Maintenance Company could not defend themselves or their comrades March 23 because their weapons malfunctioned while they sustained a lengthy fire attack by Iraqis near Nasiriyah, Iraq, according to a U.S. Army report on the ambush.

The weapons that jammed or otherwise failed included a M-249 machine gun called a SAW (squad automatic weapon), a .50 caliber machine gun, as well as several M-16 rifles. The M-16 is the Army's standard issue weapon.

The report is not conclusive about why up to three different kinds of weapons failed and suggests that the "malfunctions may have resulted from inadequate individual maintenance in a desert environment."

For rest of story click on link.

(Excerpt) Read more at borderlandnews.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 507th; ambush; banglist; leaked; m16; m2; m249; report; saw
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To: Lurker
AMEN, though a detonics will do in a pinch.
101 posted on 07/11/2003 12:00:38 AM PDT by dts32041 ("The avalanche has started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote.")
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To: Servant of the Nine
If these people couldn't keep Ma Deuce firing they know nothing about maintainance. That leads me to believe none of the weapons was at fault. The operators were.

Thats what I was thinking when I read this
102 posted on 07/11/2003 12:49:59 AM PDT by zoen
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To: Noumenon
Oh great, now I have to put a pair of Bennellis in the budget.

Thanks, pal.

Regards,

L

103 posted on 07/11/2003 1:14:56 AM PDT by Lurker (A 'moderate' Arab is one who carries a grudge for less than 8 generations.)
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To: Shooter 2.5
bump for a later read.
104 posted on 07/11/2003 5:24:00 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: Aliska
Not to cast insults at folks who were there, but in my 32+ years in harness, I rarely saw support units ("Ash 'n Trash") who took good care of their personal weapons or who even really knew how to use them efficiently.

The tradition continues, I am afraid.

105 posted on 07/11/2003 5:37:23 AM PDT by Redleg Duke (Stir the pot...don't let anything settle to the bottom where the lawyers can feed off of it!)
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To: Yardstick
Why not outfit our guys with Kalashnikovs?

Ever fire one? Try it and you'll know why.

106 posted on 07/11/2003 5:43:59 AM PDT by Eagle Eye (There ought to be a law against excessive legislation.)
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To: Lurker
Hey - I'm here to help. Our martial arts instructor always told us to 'feed the dragon' whenever the opportunity arose. So me and the missus go through a once a week loading drill with 12 guage snap caps. Highly recommended, as the Benelli operating system is a bit different from anything else.

They're astonishingly light for a full-on combat shotgun, which makes for really quick handling. Rifle sights are nice, ghost ring even better. Get one, and you'll never go back.

Take care and keep it right side up.
107 posted on 07/11/2003 6:23:00 AM PDT by Noumenon (Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away. -- Philip K. Dick)
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To: Eagle Eye
Ever fire one? Try it and you'll know why.

I've fired the AK47, and would choose it only above throwing rocks. It's a cheap ($17 in materials and labor), simple weapon intended for untrained conscripts for use in short-range "spray and pray" engagements.

In no particular order, I've found that:

1. The sights suck.

2. The safety sucks even more. The "AK clack" is extremely loud. You have to shift your grip to move the lever, and there are plenty of sharp edges to cut your hand.

3. Mag changes are a bit awkward and noisy.

4. Accuracy stinks. Aimed fire at man-sized targets beyond 50 meters is a joke.

No professional soldier, or even the Fr*nch, would touch this weapon, except in desperation. It's not designed for a long life, for either the weapon, or the peasant that carries it. The large amount of gas tapped off to cycle the weapon lets it work in the mud, crud, and dirty ammo, but it also batters it internally. I have a plastic buffer inside my semiauto AK47S, but that's just to protect my investment.

When I do my part, I can get hits at 300 meters firing offhand with my AR15. Then I shoot a few rounds through my AK47S, just to remind myself why I love the AR15/M-16. Anybody who can't find five minutes a day to do a quick clean-and-check of their weapon (any kind of weapon), is asking for trouble.

108 posted on 07/11/2003 7:37:40 AM PDT by 300winmag (All that is gold does not glitter.)
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To: tet68
When I first read the story, my immediate impression was that the senior NCO's had forgotten what their job was.
109 posted on 07/11/2003 7:54:36 AM PDT by jdege
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To: Aliska
Time for Metalstorm
Metalstorm.com
110 posted on 07/11/2003 8:00:05 AM PDT by Walkingfeather (C)
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To: Redleg Duke
I agree. They are used to being in convoys protected by combat arms units, and their own weapons are an after thought. This time they went the wrong way, with no combat support to guard them, drove into indian territory and paid the price.
111 posted on 07/11/2003 8:02:29 AM PDT by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: VOA
<<< ... you simply held down the trigger and cycled
the pump >>>

Winchester Model 12 works this way. Still does ;->
112 posted on 07/11/2003 8:14:30 AM PDT by snooker
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To: templar
The initial problem of the M-16 wasn't the design, it was the gunpowder.

As a precaution to poor maintenance, the chambers were also chromed.
113 posted on 07/11/2003 8:17:13 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: VOA
The last article that mentioned the lubricant also had a link to the manufacturer.

The lubricant is called MiliTec-1. I have a free sample on my desk and haven't used it yet.
114 posted on 07/11/2003 8:19:50 AM PDT by Shooter 2.5 (Don't punch holes in the lifeboat)
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To: Yardstick
Also, you mentioned that the M-16 has good ergonomics. That's exactly what this newfangled future weapon appears not to have.

I agree. I don't know if they'll give one of those to every soldier or whether there will be one per squad or something, but it seems that they forget all the hard lessons that eventually led to the adoption of the M16 in the first place. Some people forget that the M14 had a number of significant design flaws as a military weapon which were key factors in it being replaced.

I think there would be diminishing returns in replacing the M16 action with something else at this point, and there is no other action in mass production at this time that would represent a significant improvement. It is one of the finest actions ever engineered for its role, it is mature and all the bugs have long since been ironed out, and it is relatively cheap to produce (the gov't pays about $500 for it). It is also a very flexible and modular design that is easily hacked for various roles.

My personal opinion is that at this point the only valid reason for replacing it would be to switch to a fundamentally different small arms technology. As a conventional military firearm it works too well to throw away the investment in it at this point.

115 posted on 07/11/2003 10:00:01 AM PDT by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: Flavius
Would you ever reach a point where weapons get dirty by normal use when it will jam...

Not easily. My experience in the field shooting military ammo is that you've got about 1500 rounds of solid reliability before cleaning becomes a significant necessity i.e. several full loads of ammo. The weapon can actually get really filthy and still function, and there are only one or two small places on the weapon that you have to keep kind of clean for it to function and as long as you keep these somewhat clean it will pretty much run forever. I find it is usually a combination of sand in the action AND accumulated powder residue together that take their toll; the weapon handles either one individually quite well and if you start out with a squeaky clean weapon you can expect to shoot your entire ammo loadout and then some without a single problem.

Again, it is operator familiarity. I personally find the M16 to be a relatively low maintenance weapon if you know what you are doing with it. If you start out with a clean and well-maintained weapon, you can keep it fully operational in the field pretty much indefinitely with the occasional quick touch-up. Note that I've never had much problem with sand and grit either. Those only became an issue when the weapon already had a lot of accumulated powder residue inside, which normally takes a long time to build up. By the time your weapon will start failing to function reliably, it also means that you've obviously skipped several opportunities to give your rifle a quick cleaning and gone through a few ammo resupplies.

116 posted on 07/11/2003 10:23:26 AM PDT by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: 300winmag
Then I shoot a few rounds through my AK47S, just to remind myself why I love the AR15/M-16.

Amen. The AK was built to withstand the lowest common denominator of soldier, environment and maintenance frequency.

They're great if you're willing to forego any sort of accuracy in exchange for not having to clean it.

117 posted on 07/11/2003 12:19:03 PM PDT by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: Aliska
XM29 SABR (OICW) thread here...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/798202/posts

118 posted on 07/11/2003 12:22:47 PM PDT by xsrdx (Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas)
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To: tortoise
Thanks for the information.
119 posted on 07/11/2003 6:12:26 PM PDT by Flavius (I)
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To: 300winmag
I can't disagree with a single word. Those who claim to prefer the AK have never used one. It may be fine for peasant guerilla warfare and uprisings, but it's not a first choice weapon for professional soldiers.
120 posted on 07/11/2003 9:09:30 PM PDT by Eagle Eye (There ought to be a law against excessive legislation.)
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