507th's weapons failed in combat, Army report says (M-16 Rifle)

El Paso Times ^ | July 10, 2003 | Diana Washington Valdez

[Aliska]

Several soldiers of the 507th Maintenance Company could not defend themselves or their comrades March 23 because their weapons malfunctioned while they sustained a lengthy fire attack by Iraqis near Nasiriyah, Iraq, according to a U.S. Army report on the ambush.

The weapons that jammed or otherwise failed included a M-249 machine gun called a SAW (squad automatic weapon), a .50 caliber machine gun, as well as several M-16 rifles. The M-16 is the Army's standard issue weapon.

The report is not conclusive about why up to three different kinds of weapons failed and suggests that the "malfunctions may have resulted from inadequate individual maintenance in a desert environment."

For rest of story click on link.

[Aliska]

That doesn't look like it would be a good weapon to issue female troops, and it would be hard to haul around if you are on foot. It looks pretty deadly though.

[HoustonCurmudgeon]

but from my own experience, the level of maintenance and knowledge of weapons was much lower among these MOS than in the combat specialties. The 50 Cal in particular is a time tested and reliable weapon. If you take care of it- it shoots.

BINGO!

[VOA]

507th's weapons failed in combat, Army report says (M-16 Rifle)

Maybe one of the better brains here at freerepublic can give a citation...

...but I believe that during the time of that one horrendous sand-storm
during the drive north from Kuwait, there was one newspaper/media report
of some lowly enlisted fellow who had discovered some lubricant that was really
much better at keeping infantry weapons working (cycling) during extremely
dirty (sand-storm?) conditions; that is, much better than the standard issue.

Maybe someone can resurrect that thread and mail a copy to their local Army/Marine
recruitment station or Guard unit...just to see it gets a fair hearing.

[Ajnin]

This is the reason the US Marine Corps makes every Marine go through combat training on a regular basis. Perhaps the Army should look at similar training.

[Prodigal Son]

Well- it does! ;-)

[xm177e2]

That is the OICW, the intended replacement for the M-16A2 rifle, M4A1 carbine and M203 grenade launcher.

No, it's the intended replacement for the rifle/GL combination. Footsoldiers will continue to carry M16-type rifles into battle.

[Servant of the Nine]

That doesn't look like it would be a good weapon to issue female troops, and it would be hard to haul around if you are on foot. It looks pretty deadly though.

It is a semi auto 20mm grenade launcher as powerful as the current 40mm that can command detonate the grenades as they pass over the target if necessary. The thermal/starlight/visible light laser rangefinder can display on the helmet viewfinder, so that you can literally shoot around corners. It also contains a conventional 5.56mm assault rifle for close in defense.

So9

[SSN558]

A fifty jam is not unheard of but highly unlikely. Is the Pentagon sure that the 507th just peed in their pants and forgot to pull the trigger ?

[spartan68]

Glad to see the M-16 is still as reliable as it was in NAM! --/sarcasm off

[tortoise]

Why not outfit our guys with Kalashnikovs?

Because even the really nice ones (e.g. Valmets) are piss poor combat weapons in a lot of ways for a highly trained combat grunt. They may be adequate for peasants or poorly trained troops, but their shortcomings are legion if you are little more high-speed and the Kalashnikov system starts to hinder battlefield performance. The M16 may be a poor choice for poorly trained troops, but it is a wonderful platform for highly-trained soldiers.

If you've done urban or CQB with AK actions, one thing you notice right away is that those weapons are slow to operate in a dozen different ways compared to an M16 action. If nothing else, Stoner was detail oriented on the ergonomics side of things. When going up against other well-trained troops operational speed matters, and it can be the difference between your ass and the other guy's.

[Servant of the Nine]

No, it's the intended replacement for the rifle/GL combination. Footsoldiers will continue to carry M16-type rifles into battle.

Maybe. It was originally intended to replace all infantry rifles/carbines, but the congress took the choke at the $23,000 price tag. I think in a decade as prices come down it will replace all M-16 M-4 weapons.

So9

[xrp]

Yeah that's what I said.

[Prodigal Son]

That doesn't look like it would be a good weapon to issue female troops,

Well, the thing is- the Army doesn't hand out weapons based on gender. It's just like that big jack hammer you see the guys busting up the sidewalk with- it's a tool. You have to be big enough to handle the tool or you shouldn't be in the job. A weapon is no different. It's a tool. It's designed for specific things and to counter specific threats. You can't design some weapons for female and some weapons for male and expect them to be able to survive in the same environment. It's... not a good idea.

[FLAMING DEATH]

From everything I've heard, the Kalashnikov is more reliable and cheaper to make than the M-16. There's even a .223 variant already made, so it could use standard ammo.

[Vinnie]

True, not true, or sort-of-true?

True, though I think it was an Ithaca 37.

( Seem to remember it from Unintended Consequences)

[Freedom4US]

The 'fitty cal' requires headspace and timing to operate properly. It is not an intuitive skill, and must be test fired to ensure everything is correct. The scenario as outlined represents a failure of the NCO corps. I say this as a former NCO in the US Army. A tragic result of 'checking the block' off on training, and first line supervisors dropping the ball, and perhaps promotion above skill level. There is no excuse for a dirty weapon - none. The M16A2 has several improvements over the original A1 model, as long as kept reasonably clean should present no problem.

[jwalsh07]

This is the reason the US Marine Corps makes every Marine go through combat training on a regular basis. Perhaps the Army should look at similar training.

Yup, all support troops who get in or near the theatre should be first and foremost infantry.

[Prodigal Son]

A fifty jam is not unheard of but highly unlikely. Is the Pentagon sure that the 507th just peed in their pants and forgot to pull the trigger ?

Ok, but let me ask you a question. If that 50 malfunctions- what are you supposed to do? You're supposed to correct that malfunction that's what. And if that action doesn't come second nature to you- you haven't trained enough with that weapon and are therefore not qualified to operate it.

A 50 malfunction is fairly simple to correct (assuming it's not the timing or headspace). We're talking about pulling the charging handle here- not dissecting the weapon.

I speculated on another thread that the operator might not have had the weapon on auto fire. For those that don't know- there is no safety switch on a 50. It's either ready to fire or it isn't. You've got single shot or full auto that's it. If you don't twist that little catch and put the weapon in full auto mode, that weapon will shoot once and stop (like duh). I've seen soldiers get flustered when that happens. Maybe it happened here.

[Aliska]

It won't fly unless they secure manufacturing rights and rename it. I just want the best all-purpose weapon for our troops and want to keey the lobbyists and politicos OUT of it. The troops ought to get a say because they are the ones putting their lives on the line. Gonna take a break. Later.

[kms61]

I think the Berettas referenced were 9mm pistols, not shotguns.

That said, on to semi auto vs pump shotguns. I've spent a lot of time in duck blinds under wet, muddy conditions, and I've seen many, many autoloaders hang up under those conditions, while my 870 pump just keeps on keeping on.

Experience has taught me not to rely on an automatic in adverse environmental condtions. I surely wouldn't rely on one in a life or death situation.