507th's weapons failed in combat, Army report says (M-16 Rifle)

El Paso Times ^ | July 10, 2003 | Diana Washington Valdez

[Aliska]

Several soldiers of the 507th Maintenance Company could not defend themselves or their comrades March 23 because their weapons malfunctioned while they sustained a lengthy fire attack by Iraqis near Nasiriyah, Iraq, according to a U.S. Army report on the ambush.

The weapons that jammed or otherwise failed included a M-249 machine gun called a SAW (squad automatic weapon), a .50 caliber machine gun, as well as several M-16 rifles. The M-16 is the Army's standard issue weapon.

The report is not conclusive about why up to three different kinds of weapons failed and suggests that the "malfunctions may have resulted from inadequate individual maintenance in a desert environment."

For rest of story click on link.

[Joe 6-pack]

"Sounds like more of a maintance problem, the problem occurred in several weapon types, not a good sign. someone wasn't keeping the troops on the ball, is my guess."

Agreed. Sounds like dirty weapons to me.

[Ajnin]

The M-16 is a good reliable weapon when you take care of it. The are times when it will malfunction just like any other weapon. Improper handling, excessive carbon and dirt will make any weapon malfunction. The fact that so many weapons malfunctioned at the same time leads me to believe that they were not properly maintained. Considering the 507th is a support unit they probably placed a low priority on the maintenance of their weapons. Also, they may not of had the skills necessary to perform the proper immiediate action.

[Aliska]

That's reassuring that the Beretta will be made in the USA. I never liked foreign-sourcing our primary weapons. As an aside, that gun they used to capture Elian with was made in Germany, unless they have an American subsidiary.

[jwalsh07]

Make all combat support troops in the US Army have a primary MOS of 11B and this problem will resolve itself.

[Yardstick]

That looks hard to handle. What is it?

I don't know, but I agree with you that it looks hard to handle. It looks boxy and awkward and not at all like an improvement over what we have now.

Why not outfit our guys with Kalashnikovs? I know that would be a heresy, but those things seem indestructable and foolproof.

[Copernicus]

The M-16 is a particularly cantankerous weapon favored by political operatives at the top of the chain of command and gradually altered over time to minimal combat standards.

Support troops are not generally trained to the same standards as frontline combat troops which is why they frequently suffer higher causalties in frontline combat conditions.

As with most catastrophic failures, the 507th incident probably resulted from a number of incrementally small mistakes any one of which could have altered the outcome favorably had it been avoided or overcome.

I would tend to believe the individuals in that unit were unfamiliar with their weapons under the best circumstances and were thus unable to use them properly in extreme conditions.

Best regards,

[colorado tanker]

I suspect a cleaning/maintenance issue here. Combat units didn't complain about large scale failures and these weapons have been in use quite some time. In a harsh environment like that, cleaning of personal weapons is critical, but it probably wasn't the highest priority in a rear echelon unit.

[tet68]

There are still people who don't trust an automnatic shotgun and claim the Remington pump is more reliable.

It is in certain circumstances, there is something to be said for simplicity. Get one with TWO action bars, by the way.

[Aliska]

If it was a maintenance problem, they need to address that. If the troops needed better training, they need to address that. Also, they probably did lack experience, being a support unit, but some are dead who might not be.

[xrp]

That is the OICW, the intended replacement for the M-16A2 rifle, M4A1 carbine and M203 grenade launcher.

More information here.

[mtbopfuyn]

Three different weapons. Several soldiers responsible for their own maintenance. Sounds like they didn't get the proper training. Have there been reports of other such incidences of jammed guns?

[Aliska]

Why not outfit our guys with Kalashnikovs?

I would have no problem with that if they are reliable and effective in combat and there is adequate quality control.

[tet68]

That's the weapon of the future, and it weighs somewhere
around 13 or 14 lbs.,on top is a 20 mm shooting Fuzed explosive rounds ,controlled by a computer set up in the sights.underneath is a rifle.

The idea is good, the reality.........I'm not so sure.

[fourdeuce82d]

At that time, people didn't believe there was a problem with the M-16

Still don't. REMFs with guns. Should have issued them pointed sticks instead. Same result, less noise.

[Prodigal Son]

But then, I was infantry and I knew my weapon backward and forward.

So was I.

I tell ya a little anecdote. In Bosnia, my platoon was practically bored to death. Sitting in a tent on top of a hill for months. Knee deep snow. No reason to go outside. Nothing to do but sit around and look at each other.

Anyway. We had a ADA Humvee attached to us on this hill. Just two guys- an E5 and one enlisted. They rotated down to their main unit about once every two weeks so we got someone new to look at every so often. One of these new ADA enlisted was fascinated that all of us infantry types would clean our weapons regularly "even though nobody told you to". We were like- "well yeah, you gotta take care of your weapon the way you would take care of your c--k, your life might depend on it.".

The guy (I think he was a PFC) decided he would spend a little time cleaning his weapon as well. He could not charge his weapon! The bolt was rusted shut! We had to take a hammer and work it loose. He had been running around with this weapon like that for weeks and weeks. He never knew his weapon wouldn't fire and it had never crossed his mind (or his leaders') to inspect it periodically. His weapon- wasn't!

It's a whole different world in the different parts of the Army.

[dts32041]

Clerks and Jerks, could keep Ma Duece running and if there weapons failed, bet maintenance had not been preformed in days.

In the desert you maintain your vehicles weapons prior to maintaining yourswelf.

Have had one failure in the years I carried an M-16, missing an extractor pin.

After that always checked new weapons issued to me.

No failures and thousand of rouns fire.

Can't talk about the SAW, but assume you need to preform routine maitnence on that also.

[Aliska]

That's the drift I got from hearing it discussed.

[Servant of the Nine]

That looks hard to handle. What is it?

XM29
Objective Individual Combat Weapon
(OICW)

So9

[Aliska]

Have there been reports of other such incidences of jammed guns?

This is the first I know of, other than the Col. Hackworth piece buried in the archives which was not regarded as very reliable here.

[VOA]

It is in certain circumstances, there is something to be said for simplicity.
Get one with TWO action bars, by the way.

Maybe you can correct something I've heard before...
that one of the old Winchester pump shotguns (Model 1897?) was popular in WWI
in "sweeping trenches" because if you simply held down the trigger and cycled
the pump, the beast would just fire as soon as the shell was loaded into the chamber.

True, not true, or sort-of-true?