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American workers, from skilled to highly educated, are being taken out of their jobs and the jobs shipped offshore. Even at the lower indian wage, these Americans would be better off then what they are forced to take. Don't complain about the sagging economy if you don't think protecting jobs in the US is important. The next market to take a nose dive will be housing, as the inflated prices of the last 2-3 years re-adjust back to normal. This will leave people with extremely high mortgages and less ways to pay them.
1 posted on 06/28/2003 11:23:30 AM PDT by sten
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To: sten
Back to menial (though strangely satisfying) work myself... hold two degrees, have varied and extensive experience (8 years) in all manner of internet technologies, and am currently defaulting on student loans...

Ohh well... I live a spartan lifestyle, and now have more time to ride my bike.

2 posted on 06/28/2003 12:00:50 PM PDT by StatesEnemy
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To: sten
I am not without compassion for those who are unemployed and whose jobs are being sent overseas. But people must accept that "new reality" and move on. They must either re-tool themselves to provide services that are needed by others or move wherever the work they can do is. This is now and always will be true.

I'll bet there were a lot of buggy whip manufacturing workers who lost their livelihoods when automobiles came into being a couple of generations ago.

If you lose your job like this fellow, you should have yourself a good cry, take stock of your God-given talents, research what skills and workers are needed, and re-tool yourself to meet those needs.

3 posted on 06/28/2003 12:01:20 PM PDT by PackerBoy
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To: sten
YES-and retooling ain't as easy as some imply,especially after 45
5 posted on 06/28/2003 12:08:11 PM PDT by y2k_free_radical (i)
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To: sten
bump
9 posted on 06/28/2003 12:20:32 PM PDT by VOA
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To: sten
I'm a little confused. How is it that the immigrants working menial jobs (primarily Mexicans) manage to survive? There are a ton of them in the Bay Area, one of the most expensive places in the country, working as janitors, construction workers, car washers, etc. And I suspect that some of them, being illegal, are paid under the table, so that they don't even get all the benefits.

AND they have enough money to send home to relatives in Mexico. What's the difference? How come they seem to be thriving whereas others are not?

13 posted on 06/28/2003 12:33:34 PM PDT by BamaGirl
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To: sten
Seattle is expensive.

You don't make much money.

So move then!

21 posted on 06/28/2003 1:02:34 PM PDT by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: sten
"Finally, I was hired for the deli job - for $8 an hour."

I'm surprised he hasn't been laid off in favor of an illegal willing to work a "job that Americans don't want" for less.

27 posted on 06/28/2003 1:27:41 PM PDT by newwahoo
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To: sten
bttttttttttttttttttt
30 posted on 06/28/2003 1:35:13 PM PDT by dennisw (G-d is at war with Amalek for all generations)
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To: sten
I'm a conservative that will not be voting for Bush because he is clearly not for the American worker. I'll throw my vote away on a write-in.
31 posted on 06/28/2003 1:38:01 PM PDT by EverOnward
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To: sten
"The irony is that while Indian workers make $12 an hour (the equivalent, an Indian tech worker tells me, to about $40 U.S. dollars) and considers that a living wage,.."

Read that again and again until it sinks in.

$12USD in India equals $40USD in the U.S.????

That is most interesting! The purchasing power of our currency varies with geography. In India, the $USD is stronger than it is here. Why might that be? Money is credit, and money enters the economy where the banks are when loans are made. Most $USD loans originate in the US when J6P gets a home equity loan or a car loan, or some other loan. Also when businesses borrow for business purposes. It is obvious how easy it is to borrow money, to go into debt. Checked the interest rates lately? Checked the national debt lately? Checked consumer debt levels lately? How much "equity" was extracted from homes in the last three years and converted into interest bearing debt? So America is like a fountain of US dollars. For some reason, those dollars are in demand in foreign countries by foreign workers who view 12 of them the same way our people locally view 40 of them. Neglecting living conditions and infrastructure for a moment, you could still make the case that the differential in value is analagous to the situation where the man who lives near a source of clean water is not as careful to conserve it as those who live far away from the source. Hence, the man will wash his car while those further away exercise water conservation measures. If a source of water were suddenly discovered in that distant land so that people didn't need to come with containers to get it from the source near our proverbial man, you would find that they themselves relax their conservation efforts in step with their newfound abundance. The more they have, the more uses they'll find for it that would once have been considered wasteful.

Since we live on top of the dollar well, we value the dollars flowing from it less than those in foreign lands who have accepted it as money but who live in distant lands. That is why we demand 40 of them for a unit of work of a certain kind, but those far away in other countries are happy with 12 of them.

It might be safe to say that 12 will buy there what 40 will buy here simply because they are downstream where it is dry, and here, we are up to our necks in dollars.

I believe the name for this process is "exporting inflation," and "importing deflation." We are exporting inflation to India, and India is exporting defation to us. They experience their inflation as we did our previous boom, low or lessening unemployment, feelings of hope and optimism, increasing prosperity, increasing prices as the the prices of commodities go up in dollars, which progressively lose their value over time as more arrive on the scene.

Meanwhile we experience our deflation as increasing permanent unemployment or underemployment, a feeling of decreasing prosperity, prices of luxuries dropping as prices of necessities increase, feelings of fear and pessimism about the future, business failures, mortgage foreclosures, personal bankruptcies, a shift in careers as "your services are no longer needed," to whatever work one can get for whatever wage to pay a bill.

Isn't it possible that our problem comes the fact that our government creates inflation? The reason the Indians appear to be "cheap" labor is not because they are cheap and allow themselves to be exploited, but it is because our dollars are indeed cheap here, but strong over there. This creates the opportunity for international companies to take cheap dollars they obtained here probably through borrowing from a bank, or selling bonds, or profits from sales, and transfer them overseas where they are spent to produce things that are consumed here. But they are not spent there as freely as they are here. They are held back somewhat. Instead of paying them $40, we pay them $12. There is an advantage to having access to a source of money where money is cheap, so that you can take it and spend it where money is dear, but our whole system is based on this dynamic and it is what is responsible for the deflationary effects (rising prices of energy and other important things like medical notwithstanding) we experience here. I think you will find the more inflation there is out of the dollar well that is the Federal Reserve, the more pronounced the problem will become. Making our dollar weaker here will only serve to encourage internationals to take the dollars and spend them overseas where the dollar is stronger for geographical reasons...thus, making foreigners busy, while Americans grow more idle and suffer deflationary effect.

But what if there were something that was valued equally by US citizens and Indians and generally well distributed throughout the world? Then the amount of that substance that the Indian would be pleased to accept for a given service should be equal to the amount of that same substance that a U.S. citizen would be pleased to accept for providing the same service. The world at one time used such a substance as money. It is called gold.

If our money was gold (and silver for small change) instead of debt, then our government could not engage in inflation by "monetary policy" and deficit spending. And then by not engaging in inflation, it could not export inflation to other countries and import deflation to us. As long as Americans continue to accept the US government's unconstitutional practice of using things other than precious metals as symbols of value, i.e. money, then you can expect these sorts of dislocations to continue.

And as long as the government tries to fight the effects of deflation here by increasing inflation here, the dollar will only look stronger "over there" and labor look more attractive "over there," and attract business away from here at a faster rate.

This is the proverbial vicious cycle unfolding before your eyes.

42 posted on 06/28/2003 2:30:15 PM PDT by Jason_b
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To: sten
by 2008, if current trend continues, this class of displaced workers (its not just IT, its medical techs, accounting, human resources, any job that can be done by someone in front of a computer is targeted for offshoring) will be what puts Hillary into the presidency. These middle class private sector workers should mostly be republicans. Offshore their jobs and ruin their lives, and they will be looking for government jobs and programs to backfill what they've lost (free health care, etc). And guess who is going to be right their promising them that.

All you folks who poo-poo this issue, you'll be paying the increased taxes to support the programs needs to help these displaced workers.
43 posted on 06/28/2003 2:34:59 PM PDT by oceanview
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To: sten



47 posted on 06/28/2003 3:37:20 PM PDT by MonroeDNA (huh?)
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To: sten
Go to

http://www.techsunite.org/news/techind/h1breforms.cfm

From their site:

Prepared by the Department for Professional Employees, AFL-CIO, in coordination with the Communications Workers of America and numerous other international unions.

_________________

Please go away with your union BS.

48 posted on 06/28/2003 3:39:37 PM PDT by MonroeDNA (huh?)
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To: sten
More, of your hidden agenda, from the site:

Possible Reforms:

Devise labor market test that ties visa approval to local labor market conditions.
Reduce number of available H-1B visas from current level of 195,000 per annum to 1998 level of 65,000
Eliminate exemption for educational institutions.
Condition employer eligibility to petition for H-1B visas on their ability to demonstrate that, over the previous year, they
increased the number of full time equivalent U.S. workers;
increased the total amount of wages paid to their U.S. workers, and;
increased the average wages paid to their American workers.
Impose more meaningful/verifiable requirements that all H-1B employers (not just H-1B impacted) make good faith efforts to recruit in the U.S. and that they have not laid off workers to make room for guest workers.
Limit number of guest workers in any one firm, to a set percentage of the firm's workforce.

___________________________________

Unions are Marxist.
49 posted on 06/28/2003 3:43:04 PM PDT by MonroeDNA (Unions and Marxists both say, "Workers of the world, Unite!")
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To: sten
bump for later
50 posted on 06/28/2003 3:43:13 PM PDT by ProudEagle
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To: sten
This guy needs to make certain he doesn't vote DEMOCRAT SOCIALIST Gary Locke in again as Gov. Gary is a one man job wrecker for the state. Florida I believe had approx. 176 new businesses moving in last year. We had 17. But we've lost Boeing and I hear Microsft is making faint moving noises. There are reasons for this way beyond 9/11.
82 posted on 06/28/2003 11:19:29 PM PDT by Libertina (FR - roaches check in, but they don't check out....)
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To: sten
sten, I clicked the links to the article you posted.

So you realize it is from the AFL-CIO, in conjunction with the Communications Workers of America?

Did you realize that you are posting union BS? Where's the barf alert?
116 posted on 06/29/2003 3:36:31 PM PDT by MonroeDNA (Communists infiltrate unions. "Workers of the world, Unite!")
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To: harpseal
ping
133 posted on 06/30/2003 5:25:07 PM PDT by FreedomPoster (this space intentionally blank)
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To: sten
How will Boeing executives sell planes to U.S. carriers when the number of Americans who can afford to fly dwindles?

Airbus has aleady taken most of Boeing's sales.

160 posted on 07/01/2003 11:08:01 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: sten
BOO.
FREAKING.
HOO.
179 posted on 07/01/2003 4:32:10 PM PDT by M. Thatcher
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