When Is Human Life A Human Being?

http://www.freebritannia.co.uk ^ | 6/16/2003 | Marvin Galloway

[MHGinTN]

In a recent article for First Things, Maureen L. Condic, PhD, Assistant professor of Neurobiology and Anatomy at the University of Utah, presents a convincing argument for meaning of the death protocol (used when organ harvesting is anticipated) to also be used when contemplating prenatal life. She has stated accurately that, “… the loss of integrated bodily function, not the loss of higher mental ability, is the defining legal characteristic of death.”

...

To paraphrase Dr. Condic’s assertion: to be alive as an ORGANISM, the organism is functioning as an integrated whole, rather than life being defined solely from an organ, a form within the organism. …

In order to accurately apply the meaning of the death protocol offered in Dr. Condic’s article, we will have to show how an embryo is more than a mere collection of cells. We will have to show how the embryo is in fact a functioning, integrated whole human organism. If the embryo can be defined on this basis, the definition of an alive, individual human being would fit, and the human being should be protected from exploitation and euthanasia.

What is the focus of the transition from embryo age to fetal age are the organs of the fetus. It is generally held that the organs are all in place when the individual life is redefined as a fetus. The gestational process during the fetal age is a process of the already constructed organs growing larger and more functional for survival. But during the fetal age, the not yet fully functional organs are not the sole sustainer of the individual life. The placenta is still drawing nourishment from the woman’s body and protecting the individual from being rejected as foreign tissue. If we are to apply the notion of a functioning integrated whole to define individual aliveness, the organs necessary for survival must all be included. Since the primitive brain stem and other organs such as primitive lungs, to be relied upon at a later age in the individual’s lifetime, are not yet fully functional, some other organ will have to be responsible for the functioning whole.

[Hank Kerchief]

Personally, I know lots of people who see nothing wrong with slaughtering the new-born. I myself, see nothing wrong with it. In fact, I love veal.

The problem is, the whole issue is awash in emotional images and attempts affect people's feelings, and rationality is out the window.

The issue is actually this: should a government force some people's religious beliefs down the throats of those who do not hold those same beliefs?

No one doubts that a child that has been born and is breathing on its own (with it's own lungs) is a human child. Regarding the unborn as children is a religious belief. As far as I know, there is no law anywhere in this country that requires anyone to have an abortion. There is nothing to prevent anyone whose religious convictions oppose abortion from following those convictions.

The religious, however, do not want anyone else to be free to follow their convictions. The religious, on this issue, are essentially, anti-freedom, that is, anti-human.

Hank

[Nix 2]

All souls are souls.
About five days after conception, implantation occurs. Once the embryo, now called a blastocyst, reaches the uterus, it searches for a nice place to implant. Then it burrows beneath the surface of the uterus and its cells begin to divide into two groups: those that form the placenta and those that form the baby.
Your embryo is the size of a raisin (only 1/10 of an inch or 1.5-3 mm).
By day twenty-one, the embryo's tiny heart has begun beating. The neural tube enlarges into three parts, soon to become a very complex brain. The placenta begins functioning. The spine and spinal cord grows faster than the rest of the body at this stage.
Now your embryo is working very hard to begin growing its nervous system. There's a primitive heart now, and just wait until it can show you its love! Tiny buds have appeared -- if all goes well, these will someday be arms to hug you and legs to kick at you during temper tantrums. By now, your baby displays reflexes in response to a touch!
This means his nervous system is communicating with his primitive muscle cells. This communication forms the foundation of all your baby's behavior even after birth.
By day 30, facial features are visible, including a mouth and tongue. The eyes have a retina and lens. The major muscle system is developed, and the unborn child practices moving. The child has its own blood type, distinct from the mother's. These blood cells are produced by the liver now instead of the yolk sac.

At 6 weeks after conception, this is what you see.
Your embryo is about 8mm long, and an ultrasound done now would detect the tiny thumping of the heart. Although all her major organs have formed, they are not fully developed or functional.
So to back up, THIS is the first trimester.
4 weeks - The embryo produces hormones which stop the mother's menstrual cycle.

5 weeks - Embryo is the size of a raisin. By day twenty-one, the embryo's tiny heart has begun beating. The neural tube enlarges into three parts, soon to become a very complex brain. The placenta begins functioning. The spine and spinal cord grows faster than the rest of the body at this stage and give the appearance of a tail. This disappears as the child continues to grow.

7 weeks - Facial features are visible, including a mouth and tongue. The eyes have a retina and lens. The major muscle system is developed, and the unborn child practices moving. The child has its own blood type, distinct from the mother's and the child's gender is determined. These blood cells are produced by the liver now instead of the yolk sac.

8 weeks - The unborn child, called a fetus at this stage, is about half an inch long. The tiny person is protected by the amnionic sac, filled with fluid. Inside, the child swims and moves gracefully. The arms and legs have lengthened, and fingers can be seen. The toes will develop in the next few days. Brain waves can be measured.

10 weeks - The heart is almost completely developed and very much resembles that of a newborn baby. An opening the atrium of the heart and the presence of a bypass valve divert much of the blood away from the lungs, as the child's blood is oxygenated through the placenta. Twenty tiny baby teeth are forming in the gums.

12 weeks - Vocal chords are complete, and the child can and does sometimes cry (silently). The brain is fully formed, and the child can feel pain. The fetus may even suck his thumb. The eyelids now cover the eyes, and will remain shut until the seventh month to protect the delicate optical nerve fibers.

To repeat. By the end of 12 weeks, not 12 weeks after conception, but 12 weeks after the beginning of the entire pregancy, which would make the fetus only 10 weeks old, could YOU murder a child who has already proven its readiness for survival by becoming a wee small version of you or his/her mother? Whose brain is functioning? Who can feel pain and cry?
This is 18 weeks after the onset of pregnancy, not conception. It doesn't look human enough for you?

You are very rude, but that is usually what people resort to when they run out of answers and reason. Have fun while you wonder how much fun murdered infants have...

[fifteendogs]

If there is a fire and a pregnant woman is inside, firemen will risk their lives to save her and her unborn baby.

[XBob]

It seems to me, it has been a long time, so please forgive me if I err, but I think both gametes have a full compliment of chromosomes, and there is a complicated dance after conjugation to get down to the proper number of chromosomes.

However, be that as it may - the sperm and the egg are alive, are they not? So why don't they have 'souls'?

[MHGinTN]

Bob, there is no 'second egg' with identical twins. Sorry. And all the 'soul believers' appear to have agreed that a soul is in residence following conception, as evidenced with first cell division, but no one (among the 'soul believers') has asserted that the union of sperm and egg caused the soul to take up residence ... and it would be obvious to you in any other debate where you were not trying to 'win at any cost' that the advent of soul is the part that God does, the parents provide complex chemical messengers ferried to the union by a living cell from their respective bodies.

Oh, I realize you don't likely believe in God, but we 'soul believers' do. Now, would you rather address spirt, instead of soul? All living things have a soul and the species of the organism determines what species of soul the Creator gives to each of those alive things.

[hope]

Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Nuff said...

[Servant of the Nine]

If there is a fire and a pregnant woman is inside, firemen will risk their lives to save her and her unborn baby.

That is meaningless.
They would rush in just as fast for a woman who was not pregnant.

So9

[XBob]

101 - Well put, and it deserves repeating:

The issue is actually this: should a government force some people's religious beliefs down the throats of those who do not hold those same beliefs?

The religious, however, do not want anyone else to be free to follow their convictions. The religious, on this issue, are essentially, anti-freedom, that is, anti-human

[MHGinTN]

The gametes (sex cells) are called diploids, because they each have half the number of chromosomes of a typical somatic cell of the body of origin. These gametes are extremely differentiated from their origin, their original totipotent age. Every alive cell in your body has been derived from less differentiated cells at some age along the continuum of your lifetime begun at coneption. [Would you read the essay, Bob?]

[Servant of the Nine]

No one doubts that a child that has been born and is breathing on its own (with it's own lungs) is a human child. Regarding the unborn as children is a religious belief.

I will even agree that any viable fetus should be delivered rather than aborted, but only if a woman can have it delivered on demand. There is no slavery worse than forcing a woman to cary a fetal parasite against her will. (If it is living from her organs, it's a parasite.)

So9

[XBob]

Where have I been rude?

As you know so much about pregnancy, how about tell us about gametes and chromosomes, and tell us how we get to 23 or 46 chromosomes.

[MHGinTN]

So why don't the sperm and ovum have souls? ... Bob, I'm certain from past discussions we've had that you actually do know the difference in organ and organism.

[cspackler]

They would rush in just as fast for a woman who was not pregnant.

Just ask any fireman afterwards how many lives that he thinks that he has saved. You've been bust today, So9. Just love to stir it up, don't you?

[XBob]

105 - I was unaware of this in Western - Judeo/Christian beliefs:

"All living things have a soul and the species of the organism determines what species of soul the Creator gives to each of those alive things."

Perhaps you and some others enlighten me on this.

I am aware of it in other religions, particularly in the East. My first wife was Buddhist, and she kept the 'spirit house' clean and with flowers, at our home in Thailand, and my second wife was Hindu, and we went to wash in the Ganges and to pray at a sacred tree.

There are many beliefs. I am particularly interested in where the 'soul's are prior to conception, and just how and where they are when the transfered living material (gametes) moves from individual to individual, to create a new individual and a new soul. And how, because of this genetic material, we are 'human beans' (green beans, kidney beans, etc - some of the same DNA), like we and Chimpanzee's have 98-99% the same DNA (and only about 12% bean DNA.

[cspackler]

my second wife was Hindu, and we went to wash in the Ganges and to pray at a sacred tree

Ah, explains a lot. There's some serious wierd stuff in that water, man. (Is it even technically still water?)

[XBob]

read which essay?

[cspackler]

bust=busy, sorry.

[Nix 2]

If you know so much about humanity and parasites, why didn't you just simply answer my question? Isn't that baby human-looking enough for you?
This thread isn't about genetics or DNA or RNA or MRNA. It isn't about genes or alleles or DNA replication. It's about babies and the murders of babies.
You don't need religion to read, look, see, think. If that was YOUR child, could you murder it? THAT is the question.

[MHGinTN]

You wrote, "I am particularly interested in where the 'soul's are prior to conception, and just how and where they are when the transfered living material (gametes) moves from individual to individual, to create a new individual and a new soul. And how, because of this genetic material, we are 'human beans' (green beans, kidney beans, etc - some of the same DNA), like we and Chimpanzee's have 98-99% the same DNA (and only about 12% bean DNA." Well, if you find the answers to those questions, my friend, PLEASE pass them along to the rest of us ... if you're still in this world not the next or other or prior, you get the gist. [One note, however, the gametes don't create a new soul, they just bring the chemical complexities to the union using their 'aliveness' to get together. Each alive thing has a soul of life that places that organism in a species of like organisms. You are a human organism because your parents are/were humans, and you are a human being/person because God put into you a human soul. Now, would you like to discuss the human spirit residing within the human soul?]

The essay I refer to is the one linked in post #1 from which the excerpted portion at the beginning of the thread was lifted.

[XBob]

Sorry - it's about 'potential children', before they are born, and you and others trying to impose your beliefs on me and most of the the people in the country.

If you don't believe in abortions don't have one. And start paying for all those unwanted babies which are already born.

Put your money where your mouth is.