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Trotskycons? (Neo-Con Scholar Confesses Neo-Conservatism Was Founded By Trotskyite Communists)
National Review ^ | June 11, 2003 | Steven Schwartz

Posted on 06/16/2003 5:03:58 PM PDT by ComtedeMaistre

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To: Destro
I think the Trotskyist's fear nationalism. They hate ideas of borders-an evolution from the slogan "workers of the world unite" to maybe something like "citizens of the world unite." Citizens that are uni-racial, uni-cultural, uni-you name it. In other words it is the elimination of all things that make humans conflict with each other. To do so you need a strong hand to smash people into place when they don't act homogenized. That is why the laughable pronouncements that Iraq, after the war would somehow transform itself to a selfless democracy.

Trotsky sure sets you off. I guarantee he has little influence in America, little influence on the neo-conservatives and junior influence in the growth of world wide communism. You inflate him and give him too much credit. Just like his devotees. Perhaps in Europe Trotsky gets debated and discussed. Not in America.

Seems a lot of people are trying to denigrate neo-conservatism by tying it to Leon Trotsky.

61 posted on 06/17/2003 6:29:43 AM PDT by dennisw (What wit!)
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To: ninenot
What did he denounce? The mass murder of Stalin? If so, good for him!

Trotsky versus Stalin:
http://216.239.53.100/search?q=cache:sBfwxZFP8HgJ:artsandscience.concordia.ca/hist360/lectures/lecture02_txt.html+mass+murder+of+Stalin+trotsky&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
62 posted on 06/17/2003 6:32:43 AM PDT by dennisw (What wit!)
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To: ComtedeMaistre; Dr. Frank; Jim Robinson
Apparently, the anarcho-ideologues are trying to claim that FreeRepublic is a Trotskyite forum.
63 posted on 06/17/2003 6:36:49 AM PDT by Cultural Jihad
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To: Maximilian
"He wasn't satisfied with merely Russia, he wanted "international socialism" to be truly international. "

And the common link with neo-cons is with emphasis on the 'international'. The earlier edition of the 'cons' sought to ride Communism as the world vehicle. In the USA they 'took over' the Democrat party and larded the Roosevelt administration (as McCarthy accurately pointed out).

Today's edition of the 'cons', recognizing the failure of Communism toward their world ends, jumped ship to use the GOP (and the USA trade and military) for their international quest.

It is quite obvious that this article, and similar, are bringing foreign isms into America, disputing who killed the most but uniting on ending Christianity. God Bless America.

64 posted on 06/17/2003 7:36:54 AM PDT by ex-snook (Is outsourcing factories and jobs a conservative position?)
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To: dennisw
I am amazed to see you defend Trotsky who was a prominent engineer of the Red Terror.
65 posted on 06/17/2003 8:02:38 AM PDT by HISSKGB
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To: ex-snook
It is quite obvious that this article, and similar, are bringing foreign isms into America, disputing who killed the most but uniting on ending Christianity.

Yes. The smart Trotskyites saw who was winning, and switched to the winning side. But they still will never promote a Christian society. It's ironic in fact that this article, written by an avowed ex-Trotskyite, is on the website of Horowitz, the guy who has just been attacking Christian leaders on the gay issue.

66 posted on 06/17/2003 8:07:35 AM PDT by Maximilian
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To: Maximilian
this article, written by an avowed ex-Trotskyite, is on the website of Horowitz

Oops, wrong thread. That was this one:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/930315/posts

67 posted on 06/17/2003 8:09:58 AM PDT by Maximilian
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To: Cacique
Reagan wasn't really ex-anything: he stayed the same! He said that he never left the democratic party, they left him. (By going to the left of him, which is what it seems the neo-cons are now doing to the Republican party)
68 posted on 06/17/2003 8:22:57 AM PDT by TradicalRC (Fides quaerens intellectum.)
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To: DPB101
I disagree, I believe that it is liberals who realize that liberal is a dirty word that hide behind the neo-con label.

It is leftists that now soft pedal themselves as liberals or "left-of center". Funny, I never hear the term right-of-center.
69 posted on 06/17/2003 8:27:21 AM PDT by TradicalRC (Fides quaerens intellectum.)
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To: dennisw
Do you see the irony in stating that Trotsky does not get debated and discussed in America being posted on this thread?

I must leave with a quote from Leon "the Pussycat"Trotsky:

"The dictatorship of the Communist Party is maintained by recourse to every form of violence."
-Terrorism and Communism, 1924, p.71
70 posted on 06/17/2003 8:41:36 AM PDT by TradicalRC (Fides quaerens intellectum.)
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To: bruinbirdman
ChroniclesMagazine, Serge Trifkovic .....good link there. I read it.
71 posted on 06/17/2003 8:57:25 AM PDT by dennisw (What wit!)
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To: Cultural Jihad
Are you a neo-con?
72 posted on 06/17/2003 9:12:25 AM PDT by jmc813 (After two years of FReeping, I've finally created a profile page. Check it out!)
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To: dennisw
Not really--you have seen from my anti-Islam posts that I am not aconformist nor do judge things willy nilly. Eliminate Trotsky for a moment-(I agree the neocons are not commies just evolved from them)-did what I define fit the neocon world view?
73 posted on 06/17/2003 9:37:14 AM PDT by Destro (Know your enemy! Help fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: dennisw
Seems a lot of people are trying to denigrate neo-conservatism by tying it to Leon Trotsky.

Maybe because the founders of neoconservativism never are able to say "I was wrong" - rather they revel in their Trotskite past and they boast of being intellectuals and how high brow they were compared to the Stalinists. Also they seem to have never lost the desire for world revolution. They change horses in mid race again and again to whoever will best suit their purposes. Their loyalty is to the revolution though the details of the final utopia get finessed from time to time. The are not and never were conservatives let alone libertarians.

BTW you seem to be defending Trotsky like he was some sort of respectable fellow being slandered. That doesn't come across well to old time conservatives (anti-communists) who you might be trying to win over to your side.

One more BTW - the "he was just a military leader during the revolution" argument doesn't cut it - the Reds Army killed a lot more than White combatants. They killed a lot of civilians in a reign of terror against any villages suspected (that's suspected not necessarily did) of helping the Whites to make examples of them so the other villages would fearfully support the Reds just like the Vietnamese communists did much later against their people.

74 posted on 06/17/2003 10:14:58 AM PDT by u-89
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To: Maximilian
[How the hell is than an "aspect of neo-conservatism"? It's an aspect of this guy Stephen Schwarz, whoever that is.] Stephen Schwartz is a prominent neo-conservative.

Barely heard of 'im, is he the guy who's actually an Islamic convert? Anyway, I'm racking my brain here but having a really hard time figuring out why I'm supposed to care

And apparently it's an aspect of Christopher Hitchens and Irving Kristol as well.

Fascinating! This just gets more and more fascinating.

J. Edgar Hoover was a white guy. J. Edgar Hoover wore dresses. I suppose wearing dresses is an "aspect of being a white guy" as well? Let me know Dr. Logic

75 posted on 06/17/2003 11:09:09 AM PDT by Dr. Frank fan
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To: Destro
What is a modern Trotskyist, I mean what do they take away from this 20s origin movement? World wide revolution

World wide revolution was preached by practically every communist. Lenin, certainly. Does the "ghost of Lenin" haunt "neo-conservatism" too? I guess I just don't understand why Trotsky is singled out

Neocon policy is to IGNORE national self-interest,

Yeah I guess that's why we pre-emptively struck Iraq

Sure they may dress up policy in patriotic terms

Ok I get it, what's going on is that you've got a policy disagreement with the "neocons" (they think attacking Iraq was in our self-interest, you don't) and because you can't argue with them on their terms using rational arguments and objective facts, you've decided to try to claim that "they're not really interested in national interest in the first place". In other words you're begging the question and assuming that the thing you believe (attacking Iraq not in our nat'l interest) has already been proven, which it hasn't.

I understand now.

76 posted on 06/17/2003 11:14:42 AM PDT by Dr. Frank fan
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To: Cacique
What distinguishes Trotskyites is a belief in that absurd concept that Trotsky had of instantaneous proletariat revolution.

Just like the "neo-cons"!!!1 /sarcasm

77 posted on 06/17/2003 11:15:51 AM PDT by Dr. Frank fan
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To: dennisw
So by your reasoning no difference between one who kills 10 people and someone who murders one.

Both are murderers. And, I don't believe that one's guilt increases as a strict linear function of their crimes. Someone who kills merely 3 million is not "twice as good as" someone who kills 6 million. The moral calculations are difficult but I know that they do not follow these simplistic mathematical formulas.

78 posted on 06/17/2003 11:18:36 AM PDT by Dr. Frank fan
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To: Cultural Jihad
Apparently, the anarcho-ideologues are trying to claim that FreeRepublic is a Trotskyite forum.

Well after all, he Wasn't A Pacifist, and neither am I! Also, he believed in worldwide proletariat revolution... just like us Freepers!

Isn't it fascinating to discover just how "Trotskyist" we've been all these years without knowing it? ;-)

79 posted on 06/17/2003 11:20:31 AM PDT by Dr. Frank fan
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To: u-89
Maybe because the founders of neoconservativism never are able to say "I was wrong" - rather they revel in their Trotskite past

Nonsense. Got any names?

 and they boast of being intellectuals and how high brow they were compared to the Stalinists. 

Perhaps. Even you are more highbrow than the Stalinists.

Also they seem to have never lost the desire for world revolution. 

And what kind of revolution are they busy promoting these days?

They change horses in mid race again and again to whoever will best suit their purposes. Their loyalty is to the revolution 

And what kind of revolution are they busy promoting these days?

though the details of the final utopia get finessed from time to time. 

The are not and never were conservatives.......

Others disagree. You are a paleo's paleo and busy trying to read some people out of the conservative movement. There seems to be some bad blood and your faction is as much responsible as the neo conservatives are.

let alone libertarians.

Finally you complement the neos!

BTW you seem to be defending Trotsky like he was some sort of respectable fellow being slandered. 

Straw man argument. I'm saying he's not the totalitarian mass murderer that Hitler, Stalin Mao Lenin Pol Pot are. Not even close.

That doesn't come across well to old time conservatives (anti-communists) who you might be trying to win over to your side.

80 posted on 06/17/2003 11:29:16 AM PDT by dennisw
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