Cars' `Black Boxes' Hold Crash Data, New Privacy Issues [manslaughter conviction on black box data]

Newhouse News Service ^ | June 10, 2003

[.45MAN]

If they have probable cause, yes..... The accident was probable cause.. We still have laws that protect those in the right even if you don't think so....

[dansangel]

The cops will be coming by your house later on today, just to have a look around. You'll let them in, right, 'cause you don't have anything to hide...

This is a rather extreme statement. We still have the 4th Amendment which requires "probable cause" for a search warrant.

I think two deaths at an estimated 98 MPH impact (that info is without the benefit of the black box) is "probable cause" enough.

[KarlInOhio]

That marriage is only legal if you consummate it. Please don't post pictures. :-)

[MineralMan]

"That marriage is only legal if you consummate it. Please don't post pictures. :-)"

Unless he has one of those rice boy mufflers. _That_ I have to see. [grin]

[ContemptofCourt]

1996 Model Cars

The following list is of 1996 model cars that come standard with EDRs, according to the Accident Reconstruction Network:

Buick Riviera
Buick Skylark
Chevrolet Astro
Chevrolet Camaro
Chevrolet Cavalier
Chevrolet Express
GMC Safari
GMC Savana
Oldsmobile Achie
Oldsmobile Aurora
Pontiac Firebird
Pontiac Grand AM
Pontiac Sunfire
All Saturn models
1997 Model Cars

The following list is of 1997 model cars that come standard with EDRs, according to the Accident Reconstruction Network:

Buick Century
Buick LeSabre
Buick Park Avenue
Buick Regal
Buick Riviera
Buick Skylark
Cadillac Deville
Cadillac Eldorado
Cadillac Commercial Special
Cadillac Seville
Chevrolet Astro
Chevrolet Camaro
Chevrolet Cavalier
Chevrolet Corvette
Chevrolet Express
Chevrolet Lumina
Chevrolet Malibu
Chevrolet Monte Carlo
Chevrolet Silverado
Chevrolet Suburban
Chevrolet Tahoe
Chevrolet Venture
GM EV1
GMC Safari
GMC Savana
GMC Sierra
GMC Yukon
Oldsmobile Achieva
Oldsmobile Aurora
Oldsmobile Cutlass
Oldsmobile Eighty Eight
Oldsmobile Silhouette
Pontiac Bonneville
Pontiac Firebird
Pontiac Grand AM
Pontiac Grand Prix
Pontiac Sunfire
Pontiac Trans Port
All Saturn models

1998 Model Cars

The following list is of 1998 model cars that come standard with EDRs, according to the Accident Reconstruction Network:

Buick Century
Buick LeSabre
Buick Park Avenue
Buick Regal
Buick Riviera
Buick Skylark
Cadillac Commercial Special
Cadillac Deville
Cadillac Eldorado
Cadillac Seville
Chevrolet Astro
Chevrolet Blazer
Chevrolet Camaro
Chevrolet Cavalier
Chevrolet Corvette
Chevrolet Express
Chevrolet Malibu
Chevrolet Monte Carlo
Chevrolet Lumina
Chevrolet S10
Chevrolet S10 electric
Chevrolet Silverado
Chevrolet Suburban
Chevrolet Tahoe
GMC Jimmy
GMC Safari
GMC Savana
GMC Sierra
GMC Sonoma
GMC Yukon
Oldsmobile Achieva
Oldsmobile Aurora
Oldsmobile Bravada
Oldsmobile Cutlass
Oldsmobile Eighty Eight
Oldsmobile Intrigue
Pontiac Bonneville
Pontiac Firebird
Pontiac Grand AM
Pontiac Grand Prix
Pontiac Sunfire
All Saturn models

1999 Model Cars

The following list is of 1999 model cars that come standard with EDRs, according to the Accident Reconstruction Network:

Buick Century
Buick LeSabre
Buick Park Avenue
Buick Regal
Buick Riviera
Cadillac Commercial Special
Cadillac Deville
Cadillac Eldorado
Cadillac Escalade
Cadillac Seville
Chevrolet Astro
Chevrolet Blazer
Chevrolet Camaro
Chevrolet Cavalier
Chevrolet Corvette
Chevrolet Express
Chevrolet Lumina
Chevrolet Malibu
Chevrolet Monte Carlo
Chevrolet S10
Chevrolet S10 Electric
Chevrolet Silverado
Chevrolet Suburban
Chevrolet Tahoe
GM EV1
GMC Jimmy
GMC Safari
GMC Savana
GMC Sierra
GMC Sonoma
GMC Yukon
Oldsmobile Alero
Oldsmobile Aurora
Oldsmobile Bravada
Oldsmobile Cutlass
Oldsmobile Cutlass
Oldsmobile Eighty Eight
Oldsmobile Intrigue
Pontiac Bonneville
Pontiac Firebird
Pontiac Grand AM
Pontiac Grand Prix
Pontiac Sunfire
All Saturn Models

2000 Model Cars

The following list is of 2000 model cars that come standard with EDRs, according to the Accident Reconstruction Network:

Buick Century
Buick LeSabre
Buick Park Avenue
Buick Regal
Cadillac Commercial Special
Cadillac Deville
Cadillac Eldorado
Cadillac Escalade
Cadillac Seville
Chevrolet Astro
Chevrolet Blazer
Chevrolet Camaro
Chevrolet Cavalier
Chevrolet Corvette
Chevrolet Express
Chevrolet Impala
Chevrolet Lumina
Chevrolet Malibu
Chevrolet Monte Carlo
Chevrolet S10
Chevrolet Silverado
Chevrolet Suburban
Chevrolet Tahoe
Chevrolet Venture
GMC Jimmy
GMC Safari
GMC Savana
GMC Sierra
GMC Sonoma
GMC Yukon
Isuzu Hombre
Oldsmobile Alero
Oldsmobile Bravada
Oldsmobile Intrigue
Oldsmobile Silhouette
Pontiac Bonneville
Pontiac Firebird
Pontiac Grand Am
Pontiac Grand Prix
Pontiac Montana
Pontiac Sunfire
All Saturns except the LS

2001 Model Cars

The following list is of 2001 model cars that come standard with EDRs, according to the Accident Reconstruction Network:

Buick Century
Buick Park Avenue
Buick Regal
Cadillac Commercial Special
Cadillac Deville
Cadillac Eldorado
Cadillac Escalade
Cadillac Seville
Chevrolet Astro
Chevrolet Blazer
Chevrolet Camaro
Chevrolet Cavalier
Chevrolet Corvette
Chevrolet Express
Chevrolet Lumina
Chevrolet Malibu
Chevrolet S10
Chevrolet Silverado
Chevrolet Suburban
Chevrolet Tahoe
Chevrolet Venture
GMC Jimmy
GMC Safari
GMC Savana
GMC Sierra
GMC Sonoma
GMC Yukon
Isuzu Hombre
Oldsmobile Alero
Oldsmobile Aurora
Oldsmobile Bravada
Oldsmobile Intrigue
Oldsmobile Silhouette
Pontiac Firebird
Pontiac Grand Am
Pontiac Grand Prix
Pontiac Montana
Pontiac Sunfire
All Saturns except the LS

2002 Model Cars

The following list is of 2002 model cars that come standard with EDRs, according to the Accident Reconstruction Network:

Buick Century
Buick LeSabre
Buick Park Avenue
Buick Regal
Buick Rendezvous
Cadillac Commercial Special
Cadillac Deville
Cadillac Eldorado
Cadillac Escalade
Cadillac Seville
Chevrolet Avalanche
Chevrolet Astro
Chevrolet Blazer
Chevrolet Camaro
Chevrolet Cavalier
Chevrolet Corvette
Chevrolet Express
Chevrolet Impala
Chevrolet Lumina
Chevrolet Malibu
Chevrolet S10
Chevrolet Silverado
Chevrolet Suburban
Chevrolet Tahoe
Chevrolet TrailBlazer
GMC Envoy
GMC Safari
GMC Savana
GMC Sierra
GMC Sonoma
GMC Yukon
Isuzu Hombre
Oldsmobile Alero
Oldsmobile Aurora
Oldsmobile Bravada
Oldsmobile Intrigue
Pontiac Aztec
Pontiac Bonneville
Pontiac Firebird
Pontiac Grand Am
Pontiac Grand Prix
Pontiac Sunfire
All Saturns except the LS

[Ramius]

Recording the highest speed you've driven could only be cause for a ticket if it was hooked to GPS data, without that there's no way to prove you were on a public road and the speed was illegal.

Unless that number was, say, 135. :-)

[mewzilla]

As long as the info is accurate, what's the worry?

[jim_trent]

It is not just GM cars. We recently had a case here where the "black box" provided information to prove that two policemen were lying. It was in a Ford.

I would be willing to bet that all cars that have air bags have these recorders. They were put in originally to protect the car companies against claims that the air-bag either failed to deploy during an accident or that it deployed too soon, causing the accident. Just that information alone was not enough to stand up in court. All the surrounding information was needed.

One thing that has been pointed out (but some people are ignoring) is that it only lasts for 5 seconds and then is recorded over. If it ACCURATELY records what is happening in the 5 seconds before an accident violent enough to cause the air bags to go off, that is OK by me. I figure I have a better chance proving that I was NOT breaking the law than someone else has proving I WAS breaking the law.

It would have helped several years back when my car was hit by a driver who ran a red light. Although he had several accidents against him, no insurance, and a suspended license, the judge ruled that none of that could be brought up in court. And, he lied, lied, lied when he was on the stand. I had to collect from MY insurance. He never paid a dime.

[KarlInOhio]

Whenever you buy a new car, rent some time at a racetrack and keep the receipt. Unless the computer keeps a record of time and location, you can always claim you did that track. Nothing illegal about 135 on private property.

[MosesKnows]

As long as they aren't

How will you know when they are?

[Ramius]

I think you're on the right track.

Facts, in this case the logging data, are neither inherently good nor evil. It is the preservation of due process, or the erosion of due process that is the critical matter here. As long as there is probable cause or a warrant then this is merely another "witness" to the accident. In that situation, it would be wrong to suppress the evidence.

[PatrioticAmerican]

A device that can record such information is a good thing. It is a bad thng if you can be tracked 24 x 7 or in real-time.

[dansangel]

I am truly sorry for your troubles with your court case. It goes to show that a little help from an electronic surveillance device can go a long way in *helping* those that are in the right.

That said, I'm intrigued by your opening story where a *Ford's* device helped a case involving two lying police officers.

The posted article had one of Ford's mouthpieces stating that his company would *never* "spy" on their customers. Truly a sparkling testimonial to make GM look bad when all the while he was lying through his teeth.

Priceless.

[Sir Gawain]

Stanziale also argued that Matos had modified his Trans Am, changing the size of the tires and even the engine's software to make it faster. That, he said, would have caused the EDR to make wrong calculations.

Horowitz said there was no proof the changes affected the EDR.

If you change the tire diameter, how does the EDR know? There's no possible way. You could put 13 inch wheels on the car and it will record you doing 100 mph when you're only doing 70 or so.

[dansangel]

As long as there is probable cause or a warrant then this is merely another "witness" to the accident. In that situation, it would be wrong to suppress the evidence.

You hit the nail on the head with more directness than I. Thank you.

[billbears]

Good grief. Thank you. Reading down this thread I was wondering what site I was on!! Looked more like a 'our government likes us and would never use such materials to actually harm us' lovefest than anything. Granted two young ladies are dead and the man should go to jail, but danged if I want a black box put in there by anybody used against me in a court of law

[discostu]

On private property it's perfectly legal to do 135, you're insurance company might get a little irrate, but that's why private race tracks have all kinds of waivers for you to sign that make you temporarily uninsured while driving there.

[jim_trent]

I have posted about this before. The cars were Ford Crown Vics that were being used as police cars. Two policemen (in two different Crown Vics) were racing to a non-critical call. They collided. One said that the car went dead on him as he was coming up to the stoplight. The other one backed him up.

Turns out (from the black box) that the car was working perfectly. One guy ran a red light when it was policy NOT to do so with that type of call. The other guy backed him in the lie. They challenged the accuracy of the black box, but lost. Both were suspended for three days. Both appealed to the Personnel Board that this was "excessive", but were overruled.

Perhaps Ford only does this on Police Cars, but I would doubt it.

[hopespringseternal]

How will you know when they are?

Because they will have to physically retrieve the data without charging you with anything.

Besides, the information stored is pretty limited in duration. It isn't like they could pull the information and tell whether you have been speeding, because I believe it only stores a few seconds worth of information.

[jim_trent]

It should be real easy to find the dimeter of the tires on the car at the time of the crash and compare the circumference to the originally installed tires. In most cases, it won't make more than a couple percent difference. Who really cares if he was going 114mph, or 112mph. You can bet that the lawyer did not do that (did not submit proof according to the article) because that is what it would have shown.