He's celibate until marriage, and dates won't tolerate it

Chicago Sun-Times ^ | June 15, 2003 | Mary Mitchell

[George W. Bush]

I'm chuckling a little here at the missionary zeal displayed by the fornication crowd. How they loathe the slightest vestige of self-control, the very idea that there might be an itch that cannot be immediatedly and repeatedly scratched with pride. One almost thinks they lie awake at nights, worrying that someone might still be a virgin.

It's quite comical really. I suspect their sex lives are even less interesting than that of Mr. Celibacy, the focus of our article.

[connectthedots]

Waiting for marriage is one thing, waiting around for a person to know their own mind is quite another. People should be honest about what they want and don't want, before things have gone on long enough to create false expectations or hard feelings.

I don't disagee with this comment at all. In fact, I think one can and should have these discussions, in detail, by the end of a second date if someone is looking for a marriage partner. The book "Date or Soulmate: How to Determine if Someone is Worth Purpuing in Two Dates or Less" by Neil Clark Warren is excellent.

I will remain cleibate until I remarry, but I am not going to wait six months only to possibly find out that a gal I've been dating is not all that enthusiastic about sex as an important part of a marriage relationship. If sex is not important enough to a gal to discuss by the end of the second date, I would only assume sex is not important to her. On the other hand, I would not enter into a discussion of this area if there were not not a lot of other important similarities in personalities, interests, hobbies, spirituality etc, in the first place.

[hellinahandcart]

On the other hand, I would not enter into a discussion of this area if there were not not a lot of other important similarities in personalities, interests, hobbies, spirituality etc, in the first place.

Yeah, there are deal-breakers out there other than sexual compatibility. Best to rule those out before the FIRST date.

In my own case, first thing I decided was "No Democrats".

[Stone Mountain]

I have less problem with this guy choosing celibacy as I do with his "I'm-doing-it-and-it-works-for-me-so everyone-should-do-it" attitude. He says, (obviously referring to the world at large), "Sex shouldn't be part of a dating relationship." and "They need to abstain. If you can't put a ring on a woman's finger or you don't want to marry the brother, you shouldn't be out there." Look - if this guy wants to deny himself, fine. Do it and shut up about it. Don't tell me how I should be running my relationships and I won't tell him how to run his.

[Stone Mountain]

I've always been grateful that my mother told me "a moment of pleasure isn't worth a lifetime of regret."

I have yet to regret any of my moments of sexual pleasure...

[George W. Bush]

But, Mountain, he's some kind of HIV counselor. He sees the results of stupid sex firsthand routinely and is well-educated in the matter.

Washington, a state-certified HIV/AIDS counselor, regularly speaks out about abstinence. He says he does so because it is the best alternative, particularly for African-American couples.

I think from the wording that Mr. Celibacy is black, has completed state certification for HIV/AIDS counseling, and is a director of external affairs for SBC Indiana (I think this is a phone company, not the Southern Baptists). He has a special concern for the destructiveness that has been wrought in black communities by sexual immorality.

Do you really think he's wrong about that? He's making a pretty strong statement on the subject by his own abstinence.

[Stone Mountain]

But, Mountain, he's some kind of HIV counselor. He sees the results of stupid sex firsthand routinely and is well-educated in the matter. I think from the wording that Mr. Celibacy is black, has completed state certification for HIV/AIDS counseling, and is a director of external affairs for SBC Indiana (I think this is a phone company, not the Southern Baptists). He has a special concern for the destructiveness that has been wrought in black communities by sexual immorality..

I think he's wrong when he tries to generalize his experience to me. I've had pre-marital sex. It was and is an important part of the dating relationships I choose to have. I believe my life has been enhanced by these experiences, and I don't regret any of them. So when some counselor who has never even met me tries to tell me that, "Sex shouldn't be part of a dating relationship," all I get from that is that he is projecting his morals and values onto me. I'm not telling him to go out and get laid, despite all of the positive benefits I feel that I have acheived from same. Why would I listen to this guy telling me that my behavior is wrong - the fact that he's an HIV/AIDS counselor means little to me. I have calculated the risks to myself, and have decided that in my risk-benefit anaylsis, the benefits far outweigh the risks. He may have decided something different for himself, and that's fine, but when starts telling me that I "need to abstain if [I] can't put a ring on a woman's finger," sorry, at that point, he's made the move from possible role model to overreaching busybody.

[Stone Mountain]

Well, I guess not everyone considers self control to be a virtue.

I consider self-control to be a virtue. But not necessarily in the realm of sex - I don't consider abstinence in and of itself to be a virtue.

As for myself, I plan on getting married, and having a family. I would like to not marry someone who has had about 100 other men's penises like yours in her vagina before me,

That night? : )

[George W. Bush]

Why would I listen to this guy telling me that my behavior is wrong - the fact that he's an HIV/AIDS counselor means little to me. I have calculated the risks to myself, and have decided that in my risk-benefit anaylsis, the benefits far outweigh the risks.

Of course you have. It might even be true if you're selective about partners, middle-class, avoid drugs, etc.

Or you may end up a casualty of sexual hedonism.

I've heard a lot of people say similar things. Mostly before they were sterilized by STDs, or got an incurable strain of STD (both gonorrhea and syphilis now have incurable strains), or got a case of herpes to enjoy the rest of their life, or got AIDS or one of the hepatitis strains.

I wouldn't wish it on you or anyone else. But lots of people have made that bet and lost, as Mr. Celibacy undoubtedly points out in his public talks. And you know all this or you wouldn't be making a 'risk-benefit' analysis for fornication like some insurance actuary.

You could turn out a loser and you just don't care. And you don't care if you drag others down with you inadvertently. You just think your fleeting pleasure is worth the risk to you and to your partners. And, if all else fails and you get the AIDS or hepatitis, you can go on public assistance so that others can pay big money for the harmless fun you had.

I've heard it all before.

[sit-rep]

LOL... I'd have to agree with your analysis.

Given the pain sexual relationships can cause, he wanted to be part of the solution--not part of the problem.

Ha! The way things are today? This guy would cause some major pain in a relationship! Have the poor girl going to therapy because her boyfriend is not sexually attracted to her!

My suggestion to this dork... If ya got the beef buddy, lay it to her. If she sticks around, marry her!

[connectthedots]

Yeah, there are deal-breakers out there other than sexual compatibility. Best to rule those out before the FIRST date.

There are some things you can learn before a first date, but to get inside a person's head about a lot of things would likely require a date or at least some time to talk first to see if there is enough in common to even go on a first date. As an aexample, I would not marry a woman who is not a Chraistian, nor do I want to marry a woman who has younger kids; therefore I do not date non-Christians nor do I date Christian women who have younger kids. It isn't fair to either them or me. I have a few women friends in that situation and because they know my desires in that area, we can have a friendship without any misunderstandings.

[RnMomof7]

I'm chuckling a little here at the missionary zeal displayed by the fornication crowd. How they loathe the slightest vestige of self-control, the very idea that there might be an itch that cannot be immediatedly and repeatedly scratched with pride. One almost thinks they lie awake at nights, worrying that someone might still be a virgin.

The ten suggestions do not carry much weight any more . I wonder what this crowd tells their daughter ?

[jimt]

I have yet to regret any of my moments of sexual pleasure...

I have, and for several reasons. Once I made the mistake of having sex with a girl who was a certifiable nut. It took several months to get her to stop contacting me, and the sex (once) certainly wasn't worth it.

Think about it a bit. What if you get a woman pregnant - and don't want to marry her? What then?

[jimt]

Sex as part of a serious relationship that might end in commitment is not "casual sex".

You are correct in that.

But it can lead to believing there's more to the relationship than there actually is. Great sex can cause you to overlook major flaws in your partner.

Someone here posted that the divorce statistics are worse for couples who live together versus those who do not. Interestingly, I divorced both women I lived with before marriage, and have had the longest marriage (10 years) with the one I did not live with prior to marriage.

[FLAMING DEATH]

"My suggestion to this dork... If ya got the beef buddy, lay it to her."

Charming.

[sit-rep]

Charming.

No. Kidding!

[Stone Mountain]

And you don't care if you drag others down with you inadvertently. You just think your fleeting pleasure is worth the risk to you and to your partners. And, if all else fails and you get the AIDS or hepatitis, you can go on public assistance so that others can pay big money for the harmless fun you had.

I was actually in agreement with you until here. Where did this come from? Who am I dragging down with me? Why would you assume I would go on public assistance for this or any other reason? What did I say to warrant this?

In other respects, you are mostly correct though. I am selective about partners and I take reaonsable precautions. My partners do the same - they are intelligent women capable of assessing their own risks for themselves. I have never lied to any of these women and I certainly don't believe I'm dragging anyone down. If I should get an STD, I would certainly make any potential partner aware of that.

And you know all this or you wouldn't be making a 'risk-benefit' analysis for fornication like some insurance actuary.

I don't understand why you would criticize me for making a risk-benefit anaylsis here. When you warn about the STDs and incurable strains of diseases here, aren't you really inviting people to make a risk-benefit analysis? Of course, you would want people to come to a different conclusion than I did, but the analysis is the same.

[#3Fan]

Maybe he just likes dating women so he can rebuff their advances?

Yeah, I assume that one stayed celibate for six months while they were dating. If he doesn't want to marry her, he shouldn't keep holding her up.

[Stone Mountain]

I have, and for several reasons. Once I made the mistake of having sex with a girl who was a certifiable nut. It took several months to get her to stop contacting me, and the sex (once) certainly wasn't worth it.

Perhaps I have been lucky, or (forgive me) possibly more selective in my choices of partners, but I have never had this problem. I am fortunate enough to be on good terms with most of my ex-girlfriends. I acknowledge that this may not be true for others. However, unlike Mr. Celibacy in the article, I'm not telling everyone else that they should live the way that I live. All I can say is that it has worked for me.

Think about it a bit. What if you get a woman pregnant - and don't want to marry her? What then?

I have thought about this a lot. It is one of my main considerations in choosing potential partners. I do not want to have children, and have almost exclusively limited myself to girlfriends that do not want children either. We use birth control reponsibly. I realize that pregnancy is still a small possiblity. If that happened, I would change my entire life and devote it to that child. I have accepted that. But I hope it doesn't happen and I don't think it will. It is possible to be very knowledgeable about fertility and to minimize chances of conception, particularly when both parties have such a strong interest in doing so.