If that's the way you felt, then you should have just moved on and left well enough alone. I get very tired of your arrogant, self righteous attitude and your "tit for tat" juvenile responses. You don't know everything, my friend and I hate to burst your bubble, your're quite boring most of the time.
My responses were based on PresBushes recent attempts to bring a halt to hostilities in the ME through his "RoadMap For Peace". You've ridiculed the President's efforts and basically have twisted my words to suit your agenda. So be it. You say, Israel is without any responsibility and the Pali's are 100% to blame for everything thats gone wrong over the last three years. That's the biggest crock I've heard in a long time. The Israeli people don't even believe that. The Israeli leadership doesn't believe that. I know of no rational person who supports such poppycock. That's empty headed rhetoric.
You ask me, how Israel is wrong. That's simple. Every once in a while they pull a real boner. The missile attacks today were their most recent boners. The attacks did nothing to advance the peace process and have only jeapordize the efforts of PresBush. Ari Flecisher speaking for PresBush today, summed it up well. He basically said, a cessation of hostiltiies by both sides, is the only way to truly start on the road to peace. The killing isn't going to stop, unless both sides engage in a real cease fire.
>>>Here's a question for you. When you understand the answer you may understand why your comments are so offensive.
Once again, your condescenting behavior is uncalled for. I will blow over this rude remark and answer you resepctfully. Oh that's right, you answered your own question. How nice.
>>>Once again, how many Palestinians would have died if Israel weren't being attacked? The answer is zero, therefore Israel is not the guilty party.
Israel may not be the main aggressor in that regard, but that isn't the entire issue here. I already told you that Israel has every right to defend itself, under normal circumstances. However, we are talking about trying to bring a peace process into play. A peace process btw, that you continually show absolutely no desire to respect or accept. Which indicates to me, there is no desire on your part for peace at all.
Remember Mister-Know-It-All, PresBush was asked by the Arab nations, specifically Saudi Arabia and Jordon, that once Operation Iraqi Freedom was finished and Saddam was removed from power, the US would become seriously involved in a new round of peace negotiations. Israel also wanted PresBush to get involved in a serious peace process. What's the alternative? Wipe out the Pali's? We both know that won't work. Relocate the Pali's? Sorry, that isn't a viable or doable alternative. You really think if somehow the Pali's were relocated, the attacks on Israel would stop. The hard facts are these. There are 300 million Arab's in the ME and at least 150 million are waiting to be turned loose on Israel. Believe it.
If some form of peace isn't brought to the ME and soon, the only option left is all out war. If you don't see that, your very delusional. Under that set of circumstances, the US would be embroiled in that war and we would have to stand by our friend and ally, Israel. But the US also has a substantive economic interest in the ME. That being oil. Right now, US efforts in the area of political diplomacy are more acceptable then a war against the Arab world.
>>>I happen to have a higher opinion of the Palestinians than you do. I know they are capable of intelligent forethought. You don't. You think they are stupid idiots that can't help stop the terrorism. I know they can.
What!!! LMAO That is real funny. You have nothing but contempt for the Palestinian people. You consider them, sub-human. I look at the Pali's, much as I look at the entire Arab world and see a struggling backward people, still living in a culture mostly stuck in the distant past. And lets not forget, this is still conflict based on religious differences, but won't be solved through endless fighting. Unless you want to wipe out an entire group of people.
I'm willing to give PresBush his opportunity to bring a peaceful resolution to the ME conflict. Its better then anything you've offered. In fact, you've offered no serious plan or alternative method to resolving the Israeli-Pali conflict. None at all. All you've said is, Israel is right. That will not solve anything!
Then you make one of the most ridiculous and outrageous remarks I've ever heard on FreeRepublic.
>>>The US is a qualified ally of Israel at best.
We don't agree on much D1. Political matters, or domestic/foreign policy issues. Honest differences are okay. But let me tell you, this remark was off the wall. You should be ashamed of yourself.
PS- I overlooked the many conflicting remarks you made, but I must post this one from your last rant. Its a whopper! LOL Here goes.
>>>You are offended by my suggestion they should be moved off the West Bank.
>>>As a matter of fact I don't want them removed from the West Bank.
Which is it, bucko? To move or not to move. LOL
Your approaching the ME conflict from the wrong prospective. You've allowed your emotions to speak for you and thats not the act of a conservative. Relax and stop taking everything personally. I would rather PresBush reach a peace settlement with both sides, then have the US get itself involved in a regional war that would throw most of the industrialized world into chaos. I agree, most of the changes have to come from the Pali's, but if the Israeli people truly want peace and I believe they do, then they must realize that firing missiles into a crowded residential area and killing/injuring innocent people, will not further the cause of peace anymore then Pali homicide/suicide bombers will further the cause of peace.
That's for sure. If this kind of tactic buys peace, then where's the evidence? Retaliation and proactive executions have been happening for several years, and I don't see any peace.
To: DoughtyOne
I find it rather difficult to discuss this issue with someone who is so far off base on just about every tenet related to it, but here I go again.
If that's the way you felt, then you should have just moved on and left well enough alone.
Well I'm sure you'd love to make baseless charges on the forum without having them outed for what they are, but sadly you won't get that when dealing with me as a general rule. You could have had that happen this time, but you couldn't resist shooting your mouth off. Smart move on your part.
I get very tired of your arrogant, well I can't help it if your pitiful excuse for logic make me sound arrogant
self righteous attitude once again, I can't help it if your words next to mine pale in comparison when logic is applied
and your "tit for tat" juvenile responses. My "tit for tat" responses make it easy for readers to compare exactly what you said with exactly what I responded. I can see why that would bother you.
You don't know everything, my friend and I hate to burst your bubble, your're quite boring most of the time.
I never said that I did know everything, but it would take more than your opinion to burst my bubble, as if one existed. As for your opinion regarding my comments, you're welcome to them. I could care less.
My responses were based on PresBushes recent attempts to bring a halt to hostilities in the ME through his "RoadMap For Peace".
What I see as a problem here, is that you don't realize that no matter how brilliant the plan, it doesn't make any difference if all concerned parties won't adhere to it. And therein is the great devide between your acceptance of it verbatum the demand that Israel comply, and the reality that Israel should never agree to be the only party in compliance.
You've ridiculed the President's efforts and basically have twisted my words to suit your agenda. So be it.
I have ridiculed the President's demands that Israel adhere to the roadmap when nobody else will. So be it.
You say, Israel is without any responsibility and the Pali's are 100% to blame for everything thats gone wrong over the last three years.
Since there is never a justified reason to carry out terrorism, I do make the claim that all terrorism is wrong and Israel is in all cases right to oppose it, to attack those who are planning and carrying it out. I do think it is sad when innocent Palestinians pay with their lives. I do think it's terrible that a society would so imbed the desire to exterminate it's neighboring state, that it loses sight of the cost of it's treachery.
That's the biggest crock I've heard in a long time.
I know you think it is. I'll let that opinion stand. I happen to think it is so self-damning that it needs no response.
The Israeli people don't even believe that. The Israeli leadership doesn't believe that. I know of no rational person who supports such poppycock. That's empty headed rhetoric.
The Israeli people believe that terrorism is justified? The Israeli leadership thinks terrorism is justified? Your take on that is interesting. All this time I was operating under the impression that they thought terrorism was wrong in every instance. Thanks for setting me straight. NOT!
You ask me, how Israel is wrong. That's simple. Every once in a while they pull a real boner. The missile attacks today were their most recent boners.
Israel made an attempt to take out a person who plans terrorist bombings. You term this as a real boner. Well you're welcome to your opinion. I think it was a well advised plan to make sure this a.h. didn't plan any more bombings. I'm very sorry they missed.
The attacks did nothing to advance the peace process and have only jeapordize the efforts of PresBush.
Well I guess this depends on your definition of peace process doesn't it. If this a.h. had been killed, he wouldn't have planned any more bombings. Pardon me if that doesn't mean that any potential victims would now experience peace as opposed to being blown to pieces. As for Bush's peace initiative, this isn't about that. This is about the average Israeli citizen's right to be free from terrorist bombings. Since Hezbalah has stated they won't honor Bush's peace initiative, please explain how this attempt will change anything with relation to them. They had planned to carry out bombings and they still will.
Ari Flecisher speaking for PresBush today, summed it up well. He basically said, a cessation of hostiltiies by both sides, is the only way to truly start on the road to peace. The killing isn't going to stop, unless both sides engage in a real cease fire.
Once again for the learning impaired. The Hezbalah and the other terrorist organization have turned Bush's plan down. That's the end of the story. Israel isn't jeopardizing chances for peace, since these organizations have already stated there isn't a chance for peace. Why don't you get that?
Here's a question for you. When you understand the answer you may understand why your comments are so offensive.
Once again, your condescenting behavior is uncalled for. I will blow over this rude remark and answer you resepctfully. Oh that's right, you answered your own question. How nice.
You're welcome. I realized you couldn't come up with it on your own.
Once again, how many Palestinians would have died if Israel weren't being attacked? The answer is zero, therefore Israel is not the guilty party.
Israel may not be the main aggressor in that regard, but that isn't the entire issue here.
Yep, it's not the issue. LOL, if you can't win with logic, dismiss the significance of the loss and shoot for round two.
I already told you that Israel has every right to defend itself, under normal circumstances.
Let me see. President Bush made a trip to the middle east. All of a sudden normal circumstances ceased to exist. The laws of nature were held in abeyance while the (Dat ta da dah!) "Road Map for Peace" glistened in the middle eastern sunlight. Sorry, real life doesn't work this way.
However, we are talking about trying to bring a peace process into play. A peace process btw, that you continually show absolutely no desire to respect or accept. Which indicates to me, there is no desire on your part for peace at all.
Who is talking about bringing a peace process into play? The perpetrators of terrorism say the talking is over. Is Israel now to conduct the peace process on their own with Bush looking over their shoulder while they agree to all tenets of the Road Map while other parties go their merry way doing their merry little thing?
How you can think in your tiny little pea brain that this is all about me, is beyond my comprehension. I'm not a part of the middle east peace process. The terrorist organizations have shown they they have absolutely no desire to respect or accept the road map, which you continually overlook in the quest to take me down a notch or two. Earth ot ReaganMan, I'm not your problem bud. Hezbalah and the other terrorist organizations are. Isreal isn't your problem, because if the terrorist organizations swore off terrorism, Israel wouldn't be going after their planners and perpetrators.
It's not me bud. It's not Israel. Your problem is Hezbalah and the other terrorist organizations. Drop em a line.
Remember Mister-Know-It-All, PresBush was asked by the Arab nations, specifically Saudi Arabia and Jordon, that once Operation Iraqi Freedom was finished and Saddam was removed from power, the US would become seriously involved in a new round of peace negotiations.
Well once agian I never said I know it all, but I do know this much. If terrorist acts continue Israel will respond as it should. No amount of good intentions on the part of the US, Israel or the rest of the civilized and uncivilized world is going to create peace when one side is blowing up tens of citizens of the other side. That's not my fault fella.
Israel also wanted PresBush to get involved in a serious peace process.
Yes, as a matter of fact they did. Do you remember Hezbalah and the other terrorist organizations seeking Bush's help? I didn't think so.
What's the alternative?
There is no alternative. Until two sides want peace more than anything else, and they tell their proxy's to butt out, this peace process is undoable. That is reality.
Wipe out the Pali's?
Since you keep bringing this up as an option, I guess I'm going to have to accept that you think it is an option and must favor it.
We both know that won't work.
Well one of us does. The other one keeps bringing it up as an option.
Relocate the Pali's? Sorry, that isn't a viable or doable alternative. You really think if somehow the Pali's were relocated, the attacks on Israel would stop.
Perhaps you need to review your history. Jordan kicked the Palestinians out of their nation. I believe the Syrians did as well, but I may be mistaken. Israel is the only one who hasn't tried that option yet.
The hard facts are these. There are 300 million Arab's in the ME and at least 150 million are waiting to be turned loose on Israel. Believe it.
The hard cold facts is that there are indeed hundreds of millions of Arabs. Not a single one of them is willing to take in any Palestinians to ease their plight. Care to guess why? When Jordan did so, the Palestinians created so much violence and termoil there, they were kicked out. No Arab nation wants to be destabalized any more than Israel does. And so this situation continues. But don't get your pants in a bunch, Israel will defend itself against all comers.
If some form of peace isn't brought to the ME and soon, the only option left is all out war. If you don't see that, your very delusional.
Well, one of us is certainly dilusional. Israel is willing to live side by side with a Palestinian state next to it. All of the Palestinian society has fixated on the utter destruction of the Jews as a reasonable response.
Under that set of circumstances, the US would be embroiled in that war and we would have to stand by our friend and ally, Israel.
Israel didn't ask for our help in the 1967 war. They don't ask or need our help today militarily. So this comment by yours is grounds for a humor break, but not much else.
But the US also has a substantive economic interest in the ME. That being oil. Right now, US efforts in the area of political diplomacy are more acceptable then a war against the Arab world.
You know, you are one of the densest individuals I've spoken to on this forum. Tell me, how much peace are we obtaining at the good will of the Al Qaeda and Taliban? We didn't seek them out fella. Well that's the way wars work. One side's good intentions cannot make the other side comply with peace processes. The terrorist organizations don't want peace. After countless discussions on this topic, you still can't grasp that. If only Israel this, or if only Israel that. Get real! The terrorist organizations don't want peace and no amount of bickering between you and I is going to change that.
I happen to have a higher opinion of the Palestinians than you do. I know they are capable of intelligent forethought. You don't. You think they are
stupid idiots that can't help stop the terrorism. I know they can.
What!!! LMAO That is real funny. You have nothing but contempt for the Palestinian people.
What's sad is that you really believe this. You are one sick individual.
You consider them, sub-human.
Yep, that's why I stated that I want peace and prosperity for them on this very thread.
I look at the Pali's, much as I look at the entire Arab world and see a struggling backward people, still living in a culture mostly stuck in the distant past.
For the most part I agree with this, although there are pockets of extreme wealth mixed in. I might add that it doesn't need to be this way. Percapita incomes in a number of middle eastern nations could provide a handsome living to all citizens if the government and ruling class would simply share the wealth. I might add that this problem has done far more to impede the average Arab's betterment than Israel could have ever done.
And lets not forget, this is still conflict based on religious differences, but won't be solved through endless fighting.
Once again, Israel cannot stop the fighting all on it's own. Until the other side swears off violence and terrorism, Israel is powerless to impose middle east peace.
Unless you want to wipe out an entire group of people.
There you go again. You really are fixated on the total destruction of an entire group of people aren't you.
What's really shocking is that you completely ignore that it is the Palestinians as a society who have adopted this goal for Israeli Jews. No I and the Israelis don't wish the Palestinians to be destroyed. They do however teach the need for the destruction of Israeli Jews in their mosks, schools and publishings. Where's your scorn for that idea?
I'm willing to give PresBush his opportunity to bring a peaceful resolution to the ME conflict.
I know you are. And as well meaning as you are, not you, not Bush, not Ariel Sharon, not our God in heaven would impose upon the terrorist organizations a policy that conflicted with their own free will. God doesn't even force us to love Him. He's not going to force the terrorists to love Israel. What part of "the terrorists will not comply with this", do you not understand fella?
Its better then anything you've offered. In fact, you've offered no serious plan or alternative method to resolving the Israeli-Pali conflict. None at all. All you've said is, Israel is right. That will not solve anything!
I have come to realize that it is futal for me or anyone else to propose a plan that the terrorists are not inclined to accept. They are determined to terrorize Israel until it's people are either destroyed or leave the middle east. That isn't going to happen so we are at an impass.
Then you make one of the most ridiculous and outrageous remarks I've ever heard on FreeRepublic.
The US is a qualified ally of Israel at best.
We don't agree on much D1. Political matters, or domestic/foreign policy issues. Honest differences are okay. But let me tell you, this remark was off the wall. You should be ashamed of yourself.
At this point in this exercise of lowing the expectations of what your are capable of comprehending, your perception doesn't surprise me. Israel is under attack and the best you can come up with is a policy of appeasement. The terrorist organizations have sworn to attack Israel with every ounce of their being, and have followed through, and you respond by waxing rhapsodic about why we should demand Israel refrain from defending themselves.
I'm in agreement on one thing. One of us should be ashamed.
PS- I overlooked the many conflicting remarks you made, but I must post this one from your last rant. Its a whopper! LOL Here goes.
You are offended by my suggestion they should be moved off the West Bank.
As a matter of fact I don't want them removed from the West Bank.
Which is it, bucko? To move or not to move. LOL
Here are my complete set of comments on the topic. They were available to you or anyone else who wanted to read and participate in the discussion on this thread. You chose to abreviate them in the quest to elevate your standing. Now you can suffer the reality of how off the mark, petty and child-like your misleading response was.
To: Frank_Discussion
If I were Israel I would set a date when terrorism was going to stop or else. I don't care what that date is, but if terrorism didn't stop I'd move the entire west bank population out of there. I would deport them and never allow them to return, end of story!
I can't imagine a condition where I would accept terrorism from a people sworn to destroy me without adopting such a policy. Irael either has a right to exist or it doesn't. I think it does. And I know I wouldn't put up with what they have.
36 posted on 06/10/2003 8:21 AM PDT by DoughtyOne
To: Reagan Man
non pertinent material deleted
Along with the rest of your misguided comments, this one takes the cake. I'd like nothing more than to see the Palestinians living a successful life in peace on the
West Bank and Gaza. It is their own citizens that aid the terrorists and you know it. It is their own leadership that avoids ending any number of efforts devised to
make sure they continue. Mosks, schools, print media and civic leaders call for the destruction of the Jewish dogs or monkeys. Despite this, neither Israel or I have
ever proposed killing the Palestinians other than to target known terrorists. Your implication that I did doesn't reflect well on you.
non pertinent material deleted
56 posted on 06/10/2003 9:18 AM PDT by DoughtyOne
To: Reagan Man
non pertinent material deleted
I happen to have a higher opinion of the Palestinians than you do. I know they are capable of intelligent forethought. You don't. You think they are stupid idiots that can't help stop the terrorism. I know they can. You are offended by my suggestion they should be moved off the West Bank. My friend, when intelligent people make a concious decision to destroy their neighbors, and the Palestinian society is permeated with this ideological conquest, then they must live by the weight of those decisions, whether the outcome is good or bad. We're talking about responsibility for one's own actions, a steadfast tenet of conservatism.
non pertinent material deleted
As a matter of fact I don't want them removed from the West Bank. I stated as much in my last post to you. The problem is, if they wish to remain on the West Bank they MUST renounce their conquest to destroy Israel. They must quit teaching their children to become terrorists. They must quit indoctrinating their children that Israelis are dogs or monkeys. They must quite publishing calls for a second holocaust in their papers. They must quit refering to Israelis as dogs or monkeys in their press. They must quit facilitating terrorist activities. Has our fearless leader addressed ANY OF THIS in public? In a word, no. We don't ask a thing of the Palestinians, in earnest. With a nod and a wink we watch as they change nothing, then demand Israel hurry up.
Yes I would agree most Israelis don't want Palestinians removed from the West Bank. In the best of all worlds I agree with them. But this isn't the best of all worlds and I do not accept your premise that in light of the Palestinian desire to destroy Israel, Israelis would rather they remain on the West Bank and terrorist attacks continue in perpetuity. And no, peace is not on the table. You don't conduct a society that is saturated with the premise your enemy is an animal and should be inhialated, then seek true peace.
non pertinent material deleted
82 posted on 06/10/2003 11:31 AM PDT by DoughtyOne
My first comment on this topic stated that the Palestinians should be given a time certain when terrorism should stop, and having passed with terrorism still occuring, they should be expelled.
My second comment stated that my first choice would see Palestinians living peacefully and prosperously on the West Bank.
In my third comment on the subject I mention that my last post had stated I didn't want to move the Palestinians off the West Bank.
My fourth comment was that I really didn't want to see them removed from the West Bank, but my earlier comments made it clear why that might need to happen.
Now either you are incapable of comprehending the full context of my comments on this subject, or you are trying your best to maintain a simpleton's approach to destructive discussion on this thread. Either way you attemped to show a conflict which didn't exist. I qualified my comments giving full context to what and why I said what I did and what my true first preference would be. I can't help it if you can't muster the brain cells necessary to keep up.
Your approaching the ME conflict from the wrong prospective.
I am approaching the middle east conflict from the only perspective that has merit.
You've allowed your emotions to speak for you and thats not the act of a conservative.
It's not emotional to adovate the policies that I have. It's called rational.
Relax and stop taking everything personally.
Oh I don't value your judgement enough to take anything you've said personally.
I would rather PresBush reach a peace settlement with both sides, then have the US get itself involved in a regional war that would throw most of the industrialized world into chaos.
The 1967 seven day war didn't cause the industrialized world to melt down. I'm going to stick with my premise that Israel has a right to defend itself.
I agree, most of the changes have to come from the Pali's,
The only real change in attitude that will be productive will have to come from two sources. Terrorist organizations will have to swear off terrorism. Then the Palestinains will have to remove from their society every inference to Israelis or Jews as sub-humans, and quit calling for their extermination. Until these two things happen, Israel could levitate and fly upside down, peace would be impossib