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Blow to Blair over 'mobile labs'
The Guardian ^ | June 8, 2003 | Peter Beaumont and Antony Barnett

Posted on 06/08/2003 4:47:53 AM PDT by A Vast RightWing Conspirator

Blow to Blair over 'mobile labs'

Saddam's trucks were for balloons, not germs

Peter Beaumont and Antony Barnett
Sunday June 8, 2003
The Observer


Tony Blair faces a fresh crisis over Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction, as evidence emerges that two vehicles that he has repeatedly claimed to be Iraqi mobile biological warfare production units are nothing of the sort.

The intelligence agency MI6, British defence officers and technical experts from the Porton Down microbiological research establishment have been ordered to conduct an urgent review of the mobile facilities, following US analysis which casts serious doubt on whether they really are germ labs.

The British review comes amid widespread doubts expressed by scientists on both sides of the Atlantic that the trucks could have been used to make biological weapons.

Instead The Observer has established that it is increasingly likely that the units were designed to be used for hydrogen production to fill artillery balloons, part of a system originally sold to Saddam by Britain in 1987.

The British review follows access by UK officials to the vehicles which were discovered by US troops in April and May.

'We are being very careful now not to jump to any conclusions about these vehicles,' said one source familiar with the investigation. 'On the basis of intelligence we do believe that mobile labs do exist. What is not certain is that these vehicles are actually them so we are being careful not to jump the gun.'

The claim, however, that the two vehicles are mobile germ labs has been repeated frequently by both Blair and President George Bush in recent days in support of claims that they prove the existence of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

During his whistle stop tour of the Gulf, Europe and Russia, Blair repeatedly briefed journalists that the trailers were germ production labs which proved that Iraq had WMD.

But chemical weapons experts, engineers, chemists and military systems experts contacted by The Observer over the past week, say the layout and equipment found on the trailers is entirely inconsistent with the vehicles being mobile labs. Both US Secretary of State Colin Powell, when he addressed the UN Security Council prior to the war, and the British Government alleged that Saddam had such labs.

A separate investigation published by the New York Times yesterday discloses that the trailers have now been investigated by three different teams of Western experts, with the third and most senior group of analysts apparently divided sharply over their function.

'I have no great confidence that it's a fermenter,' a senior analyst said of a tank supposed to be capable of multiplying seed germs into lethal swarms. The government's public report, he said, 'was a rushed job and looks political'. The analyst had not seen the trailers, but reviewed evidence from them.

Another intelligence expert who has seen the trailers told the US paper: 'Everyone has wanted to find the "smoking gun" so much that they may have wanted to have reached this conclusion. I am very upset with the process.'

Questions over the claimed purpose of trailer for making biological weapons include:

· The lack of any trace of pathogens found in the fermentation tanks. According to experts, when weapons inspectors checked tanks in the mid-Nineties that had been scoured to disguise their real use, traces of pathogens were still detectable.

· The use of canvas sides on vehicles where technicians would be working with dangerous germ cultures.

· A shortage of pumps required to create vacuum conditions required for working with germ cultures and other processes usually associated with making biological weapons.

· The lack of an autoclave for steam sterilisation, normally a prerequisite for any kind of biological production. Its lack of availability between production runs would threaten to let in germ contaminants, resulting in failed weapons.

· The lack of any easy way for technicians to remove germ fluids from the processing tank.

One of those expressing severe doubts about the alleged mobile germ labs is Professor Harry Smith, who chairs the Royal Society's working party on biological weapons.

He told The Observer 'I am concerned about the canvas sides. Ideally, you would want airtight facilities for making something like anthrax. Not only that, it is a very resistant organism and even if the Iraqis cleaned the equipment, I would still expect to find some trace of it.'

His view is shared by the working group of the Federation of American Scientists and by the CIA, which states: 'Senior Iraqi officials of the al-Kindi Research, Testing, Development, and Engineering facility in Mosul were shown pictures of the mobile production trailers, and they claimed that the trailers were used to chemically produce hydrogen for artillery weather balloons.'

Artillery balloons are essentially balloons that are sent up into the atmosphere and relay information on wind direction and speed allowing more accurate artillery fire. Crucially, these systems need to be mobile.

The Observer has discovered that not only did the Iraq military have such a system at one time, but that it was actually sold to them by the British. In 1987 Marconi, now known as AMS, sold the Iraqi army an Artillery Meteorological System or Amets for short.

Additional reporting by Solomon Hughes


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Foreign Affairs; Government; United Kingdom; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: balloons; barf; gasattack; iraq; labs; mobile; tonyblair; wmd
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To: All
This is just another trial balloon to try and derail Blair and Bush. Will it fly or not? Only time will tell.
21 posted on 06/08/2003 5:22:44 AM PDT by Terp (Retired US Navy now living in Philippines were the Moutains meet the Sea in the Land of Smiles)
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To: A Vast RightWing Conspirator
Look friend, you obviously don't understand chemistry enough to understand that you don't understand.

I worked in a hydrogen processing plant. I know.

Hydrogen permeates everything.

If you have hydrogen in a vessel, the small hydrogen molecules will start penetrating the vessel walls. Eventually, they will saturate the vessel walls.

Do some reading on hydrogen embrittlement and hydrogen attack.

22 posted on 06/08/2003 5:23:52 AM PDT by William McKinley (He has given me not answers, but questions! An invitation to marvel!)
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To: A Vast RightWing Conspirator
Who said that anything was scrubbed?

It was Saddam and the UN inspections who said he had all the WMD. Where are they?

Do you not understand the validity?

All this article is is speculation that it's not a Mobile WMD Lab! That what the paper is trying to do, look at how the sentence are constucted, they are the same type Clinton used when he was trying to muddy the waters....

I'll bet this paper doesn't even know what is is!

23 posted on 06/08/2003 5:25:42 AM PDT by sirchtruth
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To: A Vast RightWing Conspirator
Who said that anything was scrubbed? It's the people who were looking for some germs and found nothing. They therefore agreed that the whole thing was 'scrubbed'. I won't be surprised that if anyone in the media asks the briefers to define or described what they meant by 'scrubbing' you may see some bery fast back-pedalling.

It was well reported that the labs were scrubbed with bleach or ammonia in multiple articles when the labs were intitially discovered.

Let's see YOU backpedal now.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/907755/posts

THE ROAD ENDS FOR WMD ON WHEELS
New York Post ^ | 5/08/03 | NILES LATHEM

Posted on 05/08/2003 6:18 AM EDT by kattracks

May 8, 2003 -- WASHINGTON - A suspected mobile germ warfare factory has been seized by the U.S. military in northern Iraq - the first solid evidence that Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction, the Pentagon said yesterday.

American forces in Iraq are conducting a battery of tests on what they believe is a mobile biological-weapons lab that is similar to the descriptions of vehicles provided to U.S. intelligence agencies by Iraqi defectors before the war.

At a Pentagon briefing, Undersecretary of Defense Stephen Cambone stopped short of calling the find a "smoking gun."

But he added: "They have not found another plausible use for it."

"While some of the equipment on the trailer could have been for purposes other than biological-weapons agent production, U.S. and U.K. tactical experts have concluded that the unit does not appear to perform any function beyond the production of biological agents," he added.

The suspected bioweapons trailer, which was painted in military colors and loaded onto a tank transporter, fell into U.S. hands on April 19 at a Kurdish checkpoint near Tall Kayf in northern Iraq.

Cambone said the lab contained a fermentor attached to the floor that is used to produce germ agents and a system to capture exhaust gases.

These are the same features of the mobile biological weapons labs that Secretary of State Colin Powell described to the U.N. Security Council in February.

Cambone said the information Powell gave to the Security Council "was based on information from a number of sources and it confirms what the source said."

"No traces of biological agents were initially discovered because the trailer was wiped clean with some kind of bleach Cambone said.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/05/13/sprj.irq.mobile.lab/index.html

Second suspected mobile weapons lab found in Iraq
Tuesday, May 13, 2003 Posted: 5:39 AM EDT (0939 GMT)

MOSUL, Iraq (CNN) -- U.S. forces in northern Iraq have found a second suspected mobile chemical weapons laboratory, an American military official told CNN Tuesday.

There is "pretty conclusive evidence" that this is a mobile chemical weapons lab, the official said.

The trailer was discovered near Mosul Saturday by members of the Army's 327th Infantry at a former missile production facility that had been heavily looted. It was made up of refrigeration units and piping, compatible with chemical weapons production. What was also believed to be a spraying device was found nearby, the source said.

The suspected lab has been turned over to the military's mobile exploitation team.

Last week, U.S. officials seized another trailer in northern Iraq they suspect was used as a mobile biological weapons laboratory, a senior Defense Department official said.

According to Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence Stephen Cambone, the trailer matched descriptions of mobile biological laboratories provided by an Iraqi defector.

U.S. and British experts have concluded that the trailer "does not appear to perform any function beyond what the defector says it was for, which is the production of biological agents," Cambone said.

The trailer was captured at a Kurdish checkpoint on April 19 and has been brought to Baghdad, where it will be dismantled and subjected to further examination.

Secretary of State Colin Powell presented the defector's account of mobile laboratories to the United Nations in February in an effort to demonstrate that Iraq had violated U.N. resolutions requiring its disarmament.

Powell has since said the discovery "matches very closely" the information he presented at that time.

Last week's announcement came amid mounting questions for the Bush administration about the hunt for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

A mostly U.S. and British force invaded Iraq in March to oust longtime Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein and strip the country of suspected caches of chemical and biological weapons, long-range missiles and efforts to develop a nuclear bomb.

Iraqi officials repeatedly insisted they had given up any efforts to produce banned weapons. No such weapons were used against advancing coalition troops, and none have so far been found by Pentagon experts.

No biological weapons were found inside the trailer, which Cambone said had been washed with "a very caustic substance." But he said it contained equipment not normally used for "legitimate biological processes" -- including exhaust gas recovery systems that could hide evidence of biological weapons production.

24 posted on 06/08/2003 5:26:19 AM PDT by finnman69 (!)
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To: A Vast RightWing Conspirator
I imagine a discussion like this:
Analyst 1: It was a weapons lab. The hydrogen excuse doesn't work, because the metals in the vehicle show no sign of being exposed to hydrogen for any period of time.

Analyst 2: They show no sign of being exposed to biological agents either. Besides, one of the two we have in hand was obviously just constructed, and may not even have been finished. It is possible that these were constructed for the processing of hydrogen for weather balloons, but not yet used.

Analyst 1: That is possible, but it is so unlikely as to defy credulity. The Iraqis did not say they were building these vehicles to process hydrogen, they said that the vehicles they had were used to produce hydrogen for weather balloons. So by their own words, they had been using such vehicles. Where are the vehicles they were using for the purpose of gassing up weather balloons? Why have we not found any of these vehicles showing permeation of the vessels with hydrogen?

Analyst 2: I don't know, but I object to jumping to a conclusion because we have not found counter evidence. I concede we have found no evidence to support the claim they were used to produce hydrogen. But we have found no evidence to support the claim they were used to produce bioweapons.

Analyst 1: The difference is, they have an interest in hiding the vehicles from inspection if they were used for weaponry. No such interest exists if they were used for hydrogen processing. They clearly were not open to letting us inspect the vehicles (and accounting for all of them) prior to the war. And we still have not found any that were used for hydrogen processing. If they were telling the truth, they would be there for us to find. The only explanation that makes sense is that they had them, they were used for evil purposes, and then they either hid them or destroyed them.

Analyst 2: But that isn't the only possibility. As bizarre as it sounds, they may have had them for benign purposes and on principle hid them from us.

My mindset is along that of my fictional analyst 1.
25 posted on 06/08/2003 5:26:46 AM PDT by William McKinley (He has given me not answers, but questions! An invitation to marvel!)
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To: William McKinley
Great article!
26 posted on 06/08/2003 5:27:25 AM PDT by MEG33
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To: A Vast RightWing Conspirator
Who said that anything was scrubbed?
the trailers were left without any trace of their previous usage ("scrubbed clean" as investigators reported)
27 posted on 06/08/2003 5:28:43 AM PDT by William McKinley (He has given me not answers, but questions! An invitation to marvel!)
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To: sirchtruth
Can you describe scrubbing?

I am not a chemistry expert but we used to blow up cans filled whith hydrogen when I was a kid (about 500 years ago). The technology was as follows: you would make a little whole in the grownd, throw in some water, then throw a few bits of carbide in the water and cover then whole thing with a can that had a little hole in it. The carbide + water produced the hydrogen that we would explode with a little flame at the end of a long stick. It made a big boom and the can would shoot op in the air.

Carbide happens to be a very caustic substance, something like bleach times 1,000,000. If they were porducing hydrogen that way, the place would look quite scrubbed indeed.
28 posted on 06/08/2003 5:30:26 AM PDT by A Vast RightWing Conspirator
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To: A Vast RightWing Conspirator
The Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence Stephen Cambone specifically mentioned bleach or a bleach like product.
29 posted on 06/08/2003 5:34:36 AM PDT by finnman69 (!)
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To: sirchtruth
All this article is is speculation that it's not a Mobile WMD Lab!

I believe the speculation is that what was found were WMD labs. Unless someone can throw in some ingredients, turn the thing on, do some processing and come up with anthrax or cholera at the other end, it will the WMD theory will remain speculation.

30 posted on 06/08/2003 5:35:39 AM PDT by A Vast RightWing Conspirator
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To: A Vast RightWing Conspirator
You must agree that for these government employee, on government payroll, to express doubts after the man at the top of the government announced that those thingies were 'germ labs' is not something one would do ligthly.
Here is what I will agree. The government is full of people. And people are different. Some are sincere. Some are apolitical. And some are partisan. Fiercely.

Some partisans in government are Republicans.

Some are not.

What you seem to want everyone to do is to believe that the analysts who said "there are WMDs, no doubt, and these vehicles are mobile biolabs, no doubt" were being partisan or somehow lying, but the analysts who said "no, they are not" are just sincere professionals.

The fact that these analysts did not come forward before hand tells me one of three things. 1) They did not have enough confidence in their opinions to know they would be vindicated. 2) They didn't have the moral integrity to resign over what they perceived to be a sham, and they still don't have the integrity to do so, and they don't have the courage to even reveal their name so that they can be vetted by the media. 3) They are playing partisan politics.

31 posted on 06/08/2003 5:37:39 AM PDT by William McKinley (He has given me not answers, but questions! An invitation to marvel!)
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To: A Vast RightWing Conspirator
Unless someone can throw in some ingredients, turn the thing on, do some processing and come up with anthrax or cholera at the other end,...

Well, then my question would be, is everything you need found in them to produce the stuff?

32 posted on 06/08/2003 5:40:06 AM PDT by sirchtruth
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To: finnman69
Some Analysts of Iraq Trailers Reject Germ Use
By JUDITH MILLER and WILLIAM J. BROAD



American and British intelligence analysts with direct access to the evidence are disputing claims that the mysterious trailers found in Iraq were for making deadly germs. In interviews over the last week, they said the mobile units were more likely intended for other purposes and charged that the evaluation process had been damaged by a rush to judgment.

"Everyone has wanted to find the 'smoking gun' so much that they may have wanted to have reached this conclusion," said one intelligence expert who has seen the trailers and, like some others, spoke on condition that he not be identified. He added, "I am very upset with the process."

The Bush administration has said the two trailers, which allied forces found in Iraq in April and May, are evidence that Saddam Hussein was hiding a program for biological warfare. In a white paper last week, it publicly detailed its case, even while conceding discrepancies in the evidence and a lack of hard proof.

Now, intelligence analysts stationed in the Middle East, as well as in the United States and Britain, are disclosing serious doubts about the administration's conclusions in what appears to be a bitter debate within the intelligence community. Skeptics said their initial judgments of a weapon application for the trailers had faltered as new evidence came to light.

[The complete article was posted at FR yesterday]
33 posted on 06/08/2003 5:40:16 AM PDT by A Vast RightWing Conspirator
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To: William McKinley
The article of which a fragment I posted above (posted elsewhere at FR) indicates that the dissent came from 'a third team' of analysts, 'more senior' than the previous two.
34 posted on 06/08/2003 5:42:19 AM PDT by A Vast RightWing Conspirator
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To: A Vast RightWing Conspirator
The Observer has discovered that not only did the Iraq military have such a system at one time, but that it was actually sold to them by the British. In 1987 Marconi, now known as AMS, sold the Iraqi army an Artillery Meteorological System or Amets for short.

Too bad The Observer decided not to find out if these particular items were a part of that sale. That last paragraph is either a red herring or evidence of extremely lazy reporting.

35 posted on 06/08/2003 5:43:24 AM PDT by Mr. Bird
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To: A Vast RightWing Conspirator
If memory serves, carbide reacts with water to produce acytelene, not hydrogen.
36 posted on 06/08/2003 5:43:38 AM PDT by Grut
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To: A Vast RightWing Conspirator
Oh! They were senior! That settles it then.

Everything I said applies to them regardless of if they are senior or junior or mid-level.

Face it, you are trying to whip a dead horse. Your bird won't fly.

From the rabidly right-wing (not) Washington Post:

There is something surreal about the charges flying that President Bush lied when he said that Saddam Hussein was in possession of weapons of mass destruction. In Europe, and especially in Britain, where Tony Blair is also under fire, the idea has actually taken hold that the charge against Iraq was a complete fabrication.

The absurdity of these accusations is mind-boggling. Start with this: The Iraqi government in the 1990s admitted to U.N. weapons inspectors that it had produced 8,500 liters of anthrax, as well as a few tons of the nerve agent VX.


37 posted on 06/08/2003 5:46:14 AM PDT by William McKinley (He has given me not answers, but questions! An invitation to marvel!)
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To: Grut
The next basic reaction of these materials that we will discuss is the ability of certain materials to produce flammable, irritating or poisonous gases. The best example of this reaction is the mixing of calcium carbide (CaC2). The equation for this reaction is:

Calcium Carbide + Water --> Acetylene + Calcium Hydroxide
CaC2 + H2 --> C2H2 + Ca(OH)2
When this reaction occurs, an accumulation of acetylene is quite possible because the reaction does not produce enough heat to ignite the acetylene. You can imagine what a problem this could cause. If enough acetylene were produced and found, an ignition source, a rather healthy explosion could occur.

38 posted on 06/08/2003 5:47:16 AM PDT by A Vast RightWing Conspirator
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To: A Vast RightWing Conspirator
And the vessel walls would show signs of being permeated with hydrogen.
39 posted on 06/08/2003 5:49:12 AM PDT by William McKinley (He has given me not answers, but questions! An invitation to marvel!)
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To: A Vast RightWing Conspirator
Mr McKinley has thrashed you soundly. It is better to be thought a fool than to confirm it by quoting "unnamed government sources" in the New York Slimes who have NEVER even seen the trailers.
40 posted on 06/08/2003 5:59:31 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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