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Our growing rift with Europe
Boston Globe ^ | 6/5/2003 | Jeff Jacoby

Posted on 06/07/2003 1:05:19 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe

Edited on 04/13/2004 2:10:03 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

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To: Tailgunner Joe

"Sure, we should listen to the US-hating leftists of Japan, North Korea, and Taiwan. " -- Tailgunner Joe

What makes you think they are raising their "left arms?" Many are raising their "right arms" ... and the spectrum of opinion in other nations is simple: they are tired of this global positioning by the USA. We are hated by this BIG_BROTHER attitude that extracts fortunes for a police state. We haven't talked about the nations in Europe, yet that hate this idea of BIG_BROTHER being America. Have you noticed that NATO is about to be disbanded as the EU wants America out?
61 posted on 06/07/2003 4:06:17 PM PDT by Buckeroo
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To: Justin714

"So smart guy, what do you suggest we do instead of bringing the "pre-emptive" strikes to the enemies?" -- Justin714

Let's deal with two issues about 9/11; let's wake up to the truth. Our federal government was supposed to protect us from subversives flying airplanes into buildings. Of the 19 Saudis that were here illegally flying planes into buildings, if our national government was really concerned about its purpose of protecting our borders we probably wouldn't have suffered the damage.

But our government is off creating wars everywhere around the world; it is too busy to guard and defend our national borders.

62 posted on 06/07/2003 4:13:43 PM PDT by Buckeroo
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To: Buckeroo
Now isn't that an over simplified expression? You basically said that America is the lesser of two evils.

That's not what I said at all.
China is evil. America who defends these countries from this evil, is good.
And these countries you claim resent our global dominance have the sense to welcome America as this force for good in their region in of the world.

63 posted on 06/07/2003 4:14:13 PM PDT by Jorge
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To: Justin714
As a political refugee from Vietnam I'm grateful that America intervented and tried to stop the communist North from taking over the country. But thanks to the so-called "college educated" democraps and libel-als we lost the war. So smart guy, what do you suggest we do instead of bringing the "pre-emptive" strikes to the enemies? I guess we should just sit and wait for another 9/11.

Well said. It seems those who have experienced or escaped tyranny have the greatest appreciation for America as a force of good in the world.

Example; Eastern Europe, which has recently been liberated from the oppression of communism is more supportive of America than the ingrates in western Europe who have forgotten that America saved them more than once from dictators and tyrants.

64 posted on 06/07/2003 4:21:02 PM PDT by Jorge
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To: Jorge
How is China, "evil?" You go to WAL*MART here in America and shop don't you? About 90% of their products are here because of China; China OverSeas Corporation (COSCO)gives you your cheap products. So you goto WAL*MART and buy stuff that is "evil?"

Are you another hypocrite similar to US government policy?

65 posted on 06/07/2003 4:24:01 PM PDT by Buckeroo
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To: Buckeroo
Our federal government was supposed to protect us from subversives flying airplanes into buildings. Of the 19 Saudis that were here illegally flying planes into buildings, if our national government was really concerned about its purpose of protecting our borders we probably wouldn't have suffered the damage. But our government is off creating wars everywhere around the world; it is too busy to guard and defend our national borders.

The terrorists who flew planes into our buildings entered this country LEGALLY... your argument makes no sense.

66 posted on 06/07/2003 4:32:45 PM PDT by Jorge
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To: Buckeroo
"You go to WAL*MART here in America and shop don't you?"

No, I never do, nor do I 'buy union'.

I think you and tail-gunner joe are both right in different ways, but you should place the blame for Vietnam where it belongs: on Leftist protesters and home grown commies who would not let us win. And the French, who start a lot of problems with THEIR dreams of Empire.

67 posted on 06/07/2003 4:36:29 PM PDT by Darheel (Visit the strange and wonderful.)
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To: Jorge

"The terrorists who flew planes into our buildings entered this country LEGALLY" -- Jorge

Thanks for pointing out the singular issue that I made; that is, that our government has not nor does it intend to guard our national borders. GWBush keeps giving Fox a thumbs up .... it's like he says, "let 'em come on in ... we love the commotion and the American People will pay for it."
68 posted on 06/07/2003 4:42:40 PM PDT by Buckeroo
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To: Buckeroo
How is China, "evil?" You go to WAL*MART here in America and shop don't you? About 90% of their products are here because of China; China OverSeas Corporation (COSCO)gives you your cheap products. So you goto WAL*MART and buy stuff that is "evil?"

Are you another hypocrite similar to US government policy?

There are so many things wrong with your argument above I hardly know where to start.

First of all, I shop at Wal-Mart all the time and almost nothing I buy there is made in China. They carry the exact same brand-name products as other stores, only at a much lower price.
I'm sure some of their products come from China but it is nowhere near 90% as you claim.

And even if it was...where did you get the idea that "stuff" like toys or clothing is "evil"?
Are you trying to make me laugh on purpose?

Of course when I speak of China being evil I am talking about their oppressive and corrupt Govt that denies people their basic human rights and freedom.

If you don't understand how this is evil, then I am not surprised that you also cannot appreciate that America is good.

69 posted on 06/07/2003 4:46:27 PM PDT by Jorge
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To: Buckeroo
I personally think you are blinded by your "blame-America-first" mentality. You blame the Federal gov't, instead of the Islamic terrorists, for letting 9/11 occured because they were not protecting us. And when we strike back you blame us for waging wars to build an empire. You claim yourself an American but all you do is spew hatred about your own country. You're starting to sound so much like Sean "Retarded" Penn.
I won't waste anymore of my time with the likes of you. What a disgrace!
70 posted on 06/07/2003 4:49:02 PM PDT by Justin714
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To: Jorge
BTW


   

October 9, 2002, 10:30 a.m.
Visas that Should Have Been Denied
A look at 9/11 terrorists’ visa applications.

he cover story in National Review's October 28th issue (out Friday) details how at least 15 of the 19 September 11 hijackers should have been denied visas — an assessment based on expert analyses of 15 of the terrorists' visa-application forms, obtained exclusively by NR.

In the year after 9/11, the hand-wringing mostly centered on the FBI and CIA's failure to "connect the dots." But that would not have been a fatal blow if the "dots" had not been here in the first place. If the U.S. State Department had followed the law, at least 15 of the 19 "dots" should have been denied visas — and they likely wouldn't have been in the United States on September 11, 2001.

According to expert analyses of the visa-application forms of 15 of the 9/11 terrorists (the other four applications could not be obtained), all the applicants among the 15 reviewed should have been denied visas under then-existing law. Six separate experts who analyzed the simple, two-page forms came to the same conclusion: All of the visa applications they reviewed should have been denied on their face.

9/11 Terrorist Visa Applications

Hani Hanjour, 1997 (~167k file)
Hani Hanjour, 2000 (a) (~205k file)
Hani Hanjour, 2000 (b) (~169k file)
Waleed al-Sherhi, 2000 (~169k file)
Wail al-Sherhi, 2000 (~206k file)
Abdulaziz Alomari, 2001 (~259k file)

Even to the untrained eye, it is easy to see why many of the visas should have been denied. Consider, for example, the U.S. destinations most of them listed. Only one of the 15 provided an actual address — and that was only because his first application was refused — and the rest listed only general locations — including "California," "New York," "Hotel D.C.," and "Hotel." One terrorist amazingly listed his U.S. destination as simply "No." Even more amazingly, he got a visa.

The experts — who scrutinized the applications of 14 Saudis and one from the United Arab Emirates — include four former consular officers, a current consular officer stationed in Latin America, and a senior official at Consular Affairs (CA) — the division within the State Department that oversees consulates and visa issuance — who has extensive consular experience.



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All six experts strongly agreed that even allowing for human error, no more than a handful of the visa applications should have managed to slip through the cracks. Making the visa lapses even more inexplicable, the State Department claims that at least 11 of the 15 were interviewed by consular officers. Nikolai Wenzel, one of the former consular officers who analyzed the forms, declares that State's issuance of the visas "amounts to criminal negligence."

The visas should have been denied because of a provision in the law known as 214(b), which states that almost all nonimmigrant visa (NIV) applicants are presumed to be intending immigrants. The law is clear: "Every alien [other than several narrowly exempted subcategories] shall be presumed to be an immigrant until he establishes to the satisfaction of the consular officer, at the time of application for a visa, that he is entitled to a nonimmigrant [visa]." State's Deputy Press Secretary Phil Reeker recently remarked that 214(b) is "quite a threshold to overcome." It just wasn't for Saudi applicants.

Defying the conventional wisdom that al Qaeda had provided its operatives with extensive training to game the system with the right answers to guarantee a visa, the applications were littered with red flags, almost all of which were ignored. The forms were also plagued with significant amounts of missing information — something that should have been sufficient grounds to deny many of the visas. For example, while all but one terrorist claimed to be employed or in school, only on three forms is the area marked "Name and Street Address of Present Employer or School" even filled out. At the very least, the CA executive points out, "The consular officers should not have ended the interview until the forms were completed."

Any discrepancies or apparent problems that would have been resolved by way of explanation or additional documentation should have been noted in the area reserved for a consular officer's comments — yet this was only done on one of the forms. Which begs the question: Were 11 of the 15 terrorists whose applications were reviewed actually interviewed as State claims?

Though all of the 15 applications obtained by NR should have been denied, some were worse than others. Here are some of the worst:

Wail and Waleed al-Shehri
Brothers Wail and Waleed al-Shehri applied together for travel visas on October 24, 2000. Wail claimed his occupation was "teater," while his brother wrote "student." Both listed the name and address of his respective employer or school as simply "South City." Each also declared a U.S. destination of "Wasantwn." But what should have further raised a consular officer's eyebrows is the fact that a student and his nominally employed brother were going to go on a four-to-six-month vacation, paid for by Wail's "teater" salary, which he presumably would be foregoing while in the United States. Even assuming very frugal accommodations, such a trip for two people would run north of $15,000, yet there is no indication that the consular officer even attempted to determine that Wail in fact had the financial means to fund the planned excursion. They appear to have received their visas the same day they applied.

Abdulaziz Alomari
On June 18, 2001, Abdulaziz Alomari filled out a simple, two-page application for a visa to come to the United States. Alomari was not exactly the ideal candidate for a visa. He claimed to be a student, though he left blank the space for the name and address of his school. He checked the box claiming he was married, yet he left blank the area where he should have put the name of his spouse. Although he claimed to be a student, he marked on his form that he would self-finance a two-month stay at the "JKK Whyndham Hotel" — and provided no proof, as required under law, that he could actually do so.

Despite the legal requirement that a visa applicant show strong roots in his home country (to give him or her a reason to come back from America), Alomari listed his home address as the "ALQUDOS HTL JED" (a hotel in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia). Alomari didn't even bother filling in the fields asking for his nationality and gender, apparently realizing that he didn't need to list much more than his name to get a visa to the United States. As it turns out, he didn't. He got his visa.

When he arrived in the United States, he connected with his friend, Mohammed Atta. And less than three months later — on September 11 — he and Atta helped crash American Airlines Flight 11 into the North Tower of the World Trade Center.

Hani Hanjour
The most troubling of the applications reviewed is Hanjour's. It appears that Hanjour was the only applicant of the 15 who was initially refused — although this is not entirely clear, because the consular officers did not always circle "Issued" or "Refused" (as required by law) on the other forms. Hanjour had received a student visa in 1997 in order to study English at the ELS Language Center in Melbourne, Fla. On his first of two attempts to obtain a second visa in 2000, Hanjour requested a travel visa for the purpose of a "visit" — for "three years." An unidentified consulate employee, likely a Foreign Service national (a Saudi resident), highlighted the obvious problem with an applicant stating a desire to overstay his visa (the maximum length for a travel visa is 24 months) with an extra-long "visit." The unknown employee wrote in the comment box: "like to stay three years or more!" and circled the remark. That employee or a different one also scribbled something underneath about Hanjour's wish to find a flight school during the trip. This application was refused — but only temporarily.

On the subsequent application filed two weeks later, Hanjour was armed with all the right answers. Rather than stating "AZ, Rent home" as his U.S. location, he gave a specific address, complete with a house number and street name — the only one of the 15 applicants to have done so. On the second go-round, Hanjour applied for a twelve-month student visa, and changed the purpose of the visit to "study" and the desired length of stay to a more appropriate "one year." But so many changes, all of which smoothed out rough spots on the original application, should have troubled the consular officer. "It's never a good sign if someone cleans up his paperwork too well," comments the current consular officer stationed in Latin America.

As disturbing as the visa forms are, perhaps more disturbing is that State's handpicked candidate to be the new chief enforcer of visa policies, Maura Harty, had not even looked at them as of her Senate confirmation hearing last week — yet the Senate is poised to rubber stamp her nomination. That's a real shame, because examining the applications yields many valuable lessons. The most important is that we're not going to keep out terrorists until State figures out that it needs to enforce the law.

— Joel Mowbray is an NRO contributor and a Townhall.com columnist.

 
 
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71 posted on 06/07/2003 4:55:52 PM PDT by Buckeroo
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To: Jorge
You are off the mark. I will discontinue dialog with you, now.
72 posted on 06/07/2003 4:59:03 PM PDT by Buckeroo
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To: Buckeroo
Thanks for pointing out the singular issue that I made; that is, that our government has not nor does it intend to guard our national borders.

Uh..guarding our borders means stopping illegal immigration...NOT stopping people who enter legally.
The 9-11 terrorist entered this country legally.
Your argument is pointless.

GWBush keeps giving Fox a thumbs up .... it's like he says, "let 'em come on in ... we love the commotion and the American People will pay for it."

Wrong again. Fox wanted blanket amnesty for Mexicans illegally in the US..and Bush denied it.

Bush also signed the Enhanced Border Security and Visa Entry Reform Act which is a border-security law that restricts travel visas on visitors from terrorist countries, strengthens enforcement and requires schools to keep better tabs on foreign students.

73 posted on 06/07/2003 4:59:20 PM PDT by Jorge
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To: Justin714
Let me ask you a simple question. What is the point of our national defense if it is continuously making war around the world and not protecting our own borders?
74 posted on 06/07/2003 5:01:46 PM PDT by Buckeroo
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To: Buckeroo
You are off the mark. I will discontinue dialog with you, now.

LOL!

75 posted on 06/07/2003 5:02:44 PM PDT by Jorge
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To: Buckeroo
We are scorned; indeed hated and today, Europe is forced to deal with American hypocritical international interventionalist foreign policy.

Not to belabor the obvious, but American foriegn policy can never be consisnt, much less avoid hypocracy, because we changed governments on a regular basis. How could one expect Reagan to continue Carters policies, or Bush to continue Clintons? Granted, many countries are far more consistant than us in their foriegn policy, like North Korea, for instance, although a dictatorship tends to be pretty predictable.

America's shallow embrace for "peace" around the world is nothing more than a cloak to spread an Empire.

Peace? I thought the idea was freedom. Slaves live in peace, this is hardly a desirable state without liberty. There is no less noble concept than that of 'peace at all costs', and no more reliable way to ensure your own demise.

Empire? An empire of the willing, that abandons its outposts in Panama and the Philippeans, that defends others on request, levies no taxes or tribute on the conquered after war, and rebuilds their lands better than before? You mean to say that we're going to be colonizing Iraq and forcing them to learn English? Do you, by chance, have any idea what the word 'empire' means?

76 posted on 06/07/2003 5:03:06 PM PDT by Steel Wolf (Stop reading my tag line.)
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To: Jorge
You don't really don't know much, do you? I ask this question because I am seriously in understanding how some folks believe in more government, here in America. We don't need more government .... we need government to uphold the laws already established under the Constitution.

Guarding and defending our borders is way too much to ask for, I suppose.
77 posted on 06/07/2003 5:05:43 PM PDT by Buckeroo
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To: Steel Wolf

" ... we changed governments on a regular basis." -- Steel Wolf

I suppose America is a democracy under your sublime and articulate concept. We were never a republic based upon Constitutional standards such as the Bill of Rights. You are another fence sitter like Hillary Clinton telling us about the living, breathing Constitution. Even Tribe has restructured this idea... in fact, he has rescinded the point, altogether.
78 posted on 06/07/2003 5:13:09 PM PDT by Buckeroo
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To: Buckeroo
It created the US AirForce; moreover, it created the clandestine agency called the CIA. What transpired was almost dictatorial powers by this agency for and about America's foreign policy ever since. It caused Vietnam, South Korea, Kosovo and Iraq

The CIA has almost dictatorial powers? I need to foreward them the memo, I guarentee they didn't know that.

Korean War? I'll take the Soviet Union for 200, Alex.

Vietnam? French Imperial Ambitions for 400, Alex.

Kosovo? Lets try Clintons Legacy for 300.

Iraq? Lets start on the Axis of Evil column.

The CIA, sheesh, I mean, didn't you hear that the NSA is the boogeyman these days. The CIA consipiracies are so 1970's.

79 posted on 06/07/2003 5:13:10 PM PDT by Steel Wolf (Stop reading my tag line.)
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To: Buckeroo
What is your point for posting that article?
People can argue all they want about whether or not the 9-11 hijackers should have been admitted into the US or not.

That's a secondary issue for monday morning quarterbacks.

The point is they WERE issued visas and they were NOT here illegally.

So your argument that 9-11 can be blamed on authorities not guarding our borders against illegals makes no sense.

80 posted on 06/07/2003 5:13:50 PM PDT by Jorge
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