Europe Returning to Pagan Roots

NewsMax ^ | May 30, 2003 | Fr. Mike Reilly

[ffusco]

opps 51st state.

[ArneFufkin]

The concept that our fundamental human rights are a gift from God to every individual was inspired ... but it was mainly a monarchy-destruction tool. God spoke to King InbredHapsburg, and the King took it from there. The Church was a property vaccuum, which also bolstered King Sicklypale's grip on the serfs. No property, no wealth. The Church was a vehicle for PrinceLuvboys to legitimaize his Divinely channeled royal mandate from God, which usually meant grabbing property, sharing intel on riff raff rabblerousers and grabbing gold, wine, and physical favors.

Lutheran, Eastern Orthodox, Calvinist, Quaker, Jewish, Catholic, Church of Oprah ... they didn't care about any particular religion as long as no central political power claimed divine insight to seize a despotic control.

They were hellbent on spreading the risk of nefarious tyrants and the schemes of every other lying polecat in that chamber.

Christianity is very compatible with our Constitution. The creed does not mandate a political power platform. It seeks a moral and cultural leadership. Islam demands both. Trouble and bloodletting is on the menu.

[rmvh]

Re your # 185

You say the religion of Abraham is 4000 plus years old?

But this is a mere drop in the bucket of time since human beings began walking upright and looking toward "heaven".

Many, many religions have come and gone in the intervening time. New Gods and their respective heavenly hosts have evolved and then subsequently desolved..... All the while believers of many of these "theologies" have busied themselves killing non-believers for one reason or another....Most all of these were absolutely sure theirs was the "one and only"and that they were special.

But....This this subject (Divine existence)...is, as you infer, difficult to prove...either way....and even for those cults that are no longer in vogue.....for who knows and who can prove using reason and logic and avoiding emotion?

Nonetheless, no offense meant...and have a nice day.

[ffusco]

We even had a general who conquered Gaul and then went on to become our head of government.

Awesome bro!

Imperatore Dwight Gallicus Eisenhower

[ffusco]

Christianity is very compatible with our Constitution.


Excellent post! I still think you are Bob Geldoff's ghost writer.

[ffusco]

You have a point, but maybe developing the intellect might be escapism from reality also.

Masterstroke!

[ffusco]

"I think its a lot of free time."

Exactly, intellectual persuits are a luxury, a pastime. Only cultures that have satisfied the basic human needs for food and shelter have time for the esoterics of study.

[ffusco]

I admire a man that can wade through the waters of time so easily. Good post.

[ArneFufkin]

I still think you are Bob Geldoff's ghost writer

LOL! Last week on CSPAN they covered Geldoff and U2 Bono as they were leaving some U.N. function. Bono had a look like Geldoff was his big brother/hero and he was really hanging around with him! Geldoff must be one charismatic bloke.

[ffusco]

; )

[ArneFufkin]

I channel surfed onto some network up around the "FoodChannel: Nadler" network where I saw Bob Geldoff being interviewed. By Nick Lowe!

Two wise cracking hipsters, I guarantee you. Geldoff is an interesting guy. Smart and funny and self-effacing. Lowe is quicker than an eyelash.

[ffusco]

The Final Cut is under-rated IMHO. Love Pink Floyd.

[Kerberos]

”Most of the immigrants who came to the United States were Catholic, but enough were assimilated that the percentage of Catholic has never risen above 25%. ”

And wasn’t it true that the Catholics saw the state run school system as a propaganda machine that did not necessarily teach the values that they wanted to teach their children? So much so that they developed their own school system so that they wouldn’t be subjected to it.

[Antoninus]

Culturally, the Goths that settled in Italy were more Roman than Belisarius. While the Eastern Empire had long forgotten many of the customs of Rome (always being more Greek), the Goths practiced them meticulously as best they were able.

Now, of course, you're going to give me a list examples of specifically what customs you're talking about, right? Militarily, you may have a point. Beyond that, I don't think so.

You also conspicuously leave out the Arab copyists from your list of the saviors of civilization. However, that wouldn't fit your Christian agenda too well, would it?

I'm all together willing to credit certain Muslim sources for preserving some of Greco-Roman culture for posterity. (Of course, this is not to mention the legendary stories of Mohammed's successor Omar burning both the Alexandrian library and the Persian royal library in the 7th century.) I don't see how this weakens the case for plaudits going to the Christians in Rome, Ireland, Constantinople, and other places for their centuries of yeoman efforts to preserve works that would otherwise be lost forever.

And let's not forget to evaluate the results of such preservation. In the West, it led to rational scholarship, science, and exploration which the Church supported and encouraged and still does. In the Arab East, there were occasional bursts of activity in the sciences, but these were most often in spite of the Islamic authorities as opposed to encouraged by them. And of course, many of our Islamic friends today are still living in conditions that the Romans and Greeks would consider "barbaric."

[Antoninus]

Just like your last post, your claims to Christian greatness lie only in preserving the ancient world, not surpassing it.

Ok, now you're just getting silly. At the end of the Roman Empire in the West, there could be no thought to surpassing anything. With wave after wave of illiterate barbarians sweeping through, burning and pillaging for four centuries, just preservation was enough. When things settled down somewhat after the 9th century, only then we can talk of surpassing. And indeed, the High Middle Ages were a time of reawakening in terms of the arts and sciences--all under the auspices of the Catholic Church. It could well be argued that Thomas Aquinas took Aristotle and surpassed him. Or that the great cathedrals of Western Europe surpassed the architecture of Ancient Greece and Rome. Or that Dante surpassed (or at least equaled) Virgil.

I'm sorry you misunderstood my posts. I can't blame you. They don't teach this stuff in most high schools and colleges any more. Too salutary of Christianity.

[Antoninus]

The "Christians in the Arenas" was largely myth.

Prove it. Or are you just arguing from "lack of evidence." Of course, in order to make that argument, you have to discount all the original contemporary Christian sources as biased which, no doubt, you have done.

Christians were persecuted in the arenas. To say otherwise is a lie.

[TheAngryClam]

I'm not saying that there weren't Christians sent into the arenas, simply that the number is far lower than contemporary imagination would have one believe.

Furthermore, it wasn't a specifically Christian thing. Criminals of all stripes, including Christians, beggars, thieves, etc. were often used early in the day as fodder before the big event, although most areas outside of Rome probably couldn't afford lions.

Also, don't forget that the eastern half of the Empire, where the Hellenic influence was stronger than the Roman, tended to look down upon the arena in general as barbaric. It was also here where Christianity was strongest during the persecutions.

However, allow me to quote a portion of the Oxford Classical Dictionary entry on Christianity:

While thus strengthening its self-definition against Judaism, Christianity faced the task of relating to other cults. It presented itself from an early stage as a universal religion. It did not merely invite adherence but demanded it: all men and women were thought able to achieve their destiny only within its embrace. One possible response to so aggressive an invitation was resentment; and here we touch upon the so-called 'persecution' of Christianity by the Roman state. Legal proceedings against the Church were intermittent and often moderate; violent demonstrations outside the law were unusual. The heroism revered in the Acts of the Martyrs seems to have been invited as often as it was imposed. Nevertheless, we find occasional confrontation. The famous attack by Nero on Christians in Rome in 64 had no lasting impact or significance. The traditionally accepted oppression by Domitian in the 90s has gained its notoriety mostly from the misleading obscurity of Melito (Euseb. Hist. Eccl. 4.26.9f.).

There's more, but I don't want to type it all out- any larger library should have a copy in the reference section.

Generally, from the sporadic suppressions, which featured large amounts of clemency, a myth of system, Holocaust-like oppression for centuries has grown.

[TheAngryClam]

The Goths, for example, were adamant on wearing the toga, a practice long abandoned in the East.

It's the little practices that make a culture, not the grand ones.

[TheAngryClam]

The Alexandrian library being destroyed by Muslims is a myth. If anyone destroyed the library, it was likely Caesar during the Alexandrine Wars, or the Christian Patriarch Theophilius in the late 4th Century.

These people (who, incidentally, are big on Christian apologetics, and in my opinion go a little soft on Theophilius- I didn't read through everything, but I believe they gloss over the fact that the pagan keepers of the Serapeum were flayed and burned by the Christian mob) summarize everything nicely.

[ffusco]

The great churches often took centuries to build, while they were beautiful works they can not compare to the ancient engineering where roads and acquaducts went through mountains and over gorges. In Rome entire cities with sewers and plumbing were built as well harbours and other infrastructure. Only in painting did the Rennaissaance ever surpass Rome.