A MARRIAGE MADE FOR HEAVEN-Israel receives support from Christians who pray for her destruction

RJ ^ | June, 2003 | Daniel Levitas

[SJackson]

If you'd like to be on or off this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.

[rmlew]

A yes, reform judaism: the Magazine for people who think that the Oral Law is constantly re-written by teh NY Times Editorial board.

Does anyone know when they decided to go back to having the Sabbath on Saturday?

[freedom44]

interesting read thanks

[Arkinsaw]

Sounds like the author is asking the Jews to have no friends, or if they do have friends, to choose the left who supports their enemies.

The author paints the religious right as having no real care for Jews or Israel other than exclusively as a player in a script. Thats just untrue spin and American conservative Christians have a variety of reasons for supporting them.

[Donna Lee Nardo]

"...American conservative Christians have a variety of reasons for supporting [Jews]."

That's right, and not the least of which is the fact that Jews are God's chosen people!

[CroftonFreeper]

I dont know of a single Christian that wishes for the destruction of Israel. "Ridiculous"

[Courier]

Just weeks ago I couldn't wait for Nov 2004. I was convinced that there would be a monumental shift of Jewish voters to the Republicans, changing American politics for better for decades.

I no longer think that will happen. I believe the President is betraying Israel.

If anyone would care to read a few of the posts I have written recently, you would see that I gave the President the benefit of the doubt. I did not believe he was pressuring Israel, an act I would find morally bankrupt and hypocritical especially considering our recent actions.

A column I just read in tomorrow's Jerusalem Post has buttressed my worst fears.

If we continue on this road, I will need to find something to do on Election Day 2004, because I will not be busy voting. I will never support a politician who sells out Israel to the Arabs.

[SJackson]

The author paints the religious right as having no real care for Jews or Israel other than exclusively as a player in a script. Thats just untrue spin and American conservative Christians have a variety of reasons for supporting them.

Bear in mind this is from the heart of what most on FR would consider the far Jewish left. Reading it, I thought they might be getting it, a little.

[Russell Scott]

Since Christ's Kingdom will encompass the entire globe, its not just Jews who will have to accept Christ. It is everyone on the planet who wants to live in His eternal Kingdom.

[SJackson]

Well they went the other way in the mid 1800s. If I had to guess I'd say at least the 1960s, since by that time it was obvious Sunday was a free day anyway.

[Eccl 10:2]

The language, and thus the thinking, of the author needs revamping.

A Jew need not "convert" to Christianity to believe that Jesus is the Messiah. There is nothing inconsistent with Old Testament Judaism and New Testament Christianity that requires "conversion". "Completion" is a more accurate and effective way to look at it.

After all, Jesus the man was a Jew. He is King of the Jews. Jews need not give up any of there "Jewishness" to believe Jesus is the Messiah. Rather, their "Jewishness" is enhanced and augmented by accepting Christ as their personal Messiah.

So there should be nothing anti-Semitic in desiring to "complete" Jews. In fact, the idea is quite pro-Semitic, a concept to be embraced by Jew and Gentile alike.

Trivia quiz: Which book of the Bible (OT or NT) was NOT written by a Jew?

[Thinkin' Gal]

After these things I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth....One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed...."These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb."

--Revelation 7:1-14

Boy, talk about a hatchet job. And he's complaining about the dispensationalists?

Revelation 7:1-14

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

[Cicero]

Quite a few Christians support Israel who don't necessarily think the events described in Revelation refer to this particular time. Jesus said, "No man knows the day nor the hour."

I take the Book Revelations seriously. In part, at least, it refers to the historic persecutions under the Emperor Nero. In part it echoes the Book of Daniel and other parts of the Old Testament. (See Austen Farrer's very interesting book, "A Rebirth of Images.") In part it is usually taken to refer to the Last Judgment and the end of the world. But who knows when that will take place?

Evangelical Christians disagree about some of these details, too, I believe.

Even those who believe that the battle of Armageddon will take place shortly in Israel regard the Jews favorably. They are not portrayed as the villains of the piece.

[hopespringseternal]

That's right, and not the least of which is the fact that Jews are God's chosen people!

Which is why he let the Romans wipe them out, destroying the city and the temple.

Clue for the clueless: The tribulation only strengthened the church, but it destroyed the entire Jewish way of life.

[lilylangtree]

Levitas is depressing and off the mark 100%.

[therut]

I steppin in it here I know. I'm no expert of revelations but doesn't the great battle of Armagadden as seen by fundamental christians (which I lean toward) come after Israel makes a peace agreement and then is betrayed (attacked). I don't know as someone stated above any fundamental christian that wishes for the destruction of Israel. Doesn't Israel get defended from destruction by Jesus. Yes the Jews and alot of Gentiles get converted but it is not an anti-jewish wish by christians. I see it more as a realization of the Jews to who the messsiah is that they have been waiting for. He finally shows up and defends Israel as a revenging figure after all? He comes to save Israel not destroy Israel and the Jews. And haven't the reformed Jews turned their back on Judiasm anyway like the ultra-liberal so called Christians have tured their back on Jesus? However what God has set in motion will happen as He has planned from the beginnning ----Christians can not make the end time come at their beckoning and they can't stop it. So chill out and watch with amazement. Interesting subject to talk about and discuss just don't get in a fight over it.

[RaceBannon]

I only read some of this, it is so dead wrong

The New testament does NOT say the coming 7 Year tribulation is a joyful time, nor does it praise the deaths of 5/6 of Israel

It does say these things will happen, but it does not say it is something to rejoice about.

Something else, while it does say that 5/6 of Israel will be destroyed, it also says that 19/20 of the world will be destroyed.

Basic Christian doctrine on this is:

Israel was judged as a nation because, as a nation, they rejected Jesus as the Messiah. When you examine the judgements listed in Deuteronomy, you can see that a dispersion that will last long enough to give the land the Sabbath Rest called for in the law, (Israel not observing the 7th year rest, therefore all the years that were not observed will be forced on them [Babylonian Captivity], and if this does not make Israel turn to God rightly, then the Sabbath rest will be forced on them again, only multiplied; hence, the time period after 70AD to 1948)

... would be one of the judgements against Israel, and Bible believing Christians believe that time was up in 1948.

Now, the 7 year tribulation is a judgement against THE ENTIRE WORLD for not believing Jesus was the Messiah, along with the final act of chastisement against Israel.

While some Christians rejoice at seeing what they believe is prophecy unfolding, it is not a rejoicing that so many people are going to be killed!

There is a verse in Revelation where the saints that were beheaded for their faith cry out to God and ask when their shed blood will be avenged, but it is not a blood thirsty cry, it is the cry of those already in heaven, not on Earth.

The basic rejoicing in seeing the outfolding of events is not so happy for many, it is a time for lamentation for some, because they know what horror awaits the world. Israel is the centerpiece of world history, and according to Daniel this will be the center of the world, also in Zechariah Jerusalem is warned as being a burdensome stone to the world, and I believe this Palistinian situation is one of those causes of this title

While we get our timelines of the 7 year tribulation from Daniel, we also get it from Ezekiel 38. The coming horro we believeis going to happen, is not strictly a Christian doctine, it is taught inthe Old Testament, and was never fulfilled in the past!

I tried to explain some of the events and the timelines in this thread
http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/redirect?u=%2Ffocus%2Ffr%2F600296%2Fposts

[TexanToTheCore]

naive at best...