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Outsourcing hits US techies hard
Times of India ^ | MAY 26, 2003 | CHIDANAND RAJGHATTA

Posted on 05/26/2003 3:51:30 PM PDT by Lessismore

WASHINGTON: On a recent April afternoon in Silicon Valley, moments after he was told he had been laid off from his computer programming job at a Bank of America training centre, Kevin Flanagan stepped into the parking lot and shot himself dead.

Some of America's technology workers, who like Flanagan have also had to collect pink slips over the last several months, think they know why Flanagan took his life: Bank of America not only outsourced his job to India, but forced him to train Indian workers to do the job he had to give up.

In the weeks since his death, the techies have used the incident as fuel to fire a campaign against outsourcing to India, an issue that now seems poised to become a major sticking point between the two countries. Several US states are already considering legislation to ban or limit outsourcing.

Bank of America is one of several major US corporations – General Electric, Microsoft, Intel are among others - under scrutiny for outsourcing jobs to India. The Bank created what is called a "Global Delivery centre" in 2000 to identify projects that could be sent offshore.

Since then it has signed agreements with Infosys and Tata Consulting Services (TCS) to provide solutions and services.

In an e-mail exchange with this correspondent, Kevin's father Tom Flanagan said "a significant reason for which my son took his life was indeed as a result of his job being outsourced."

"Did he blame India for his job loss? No. He blamed the "system." He couldn't understand why Americans are losing jobs. Rather I should say he understood it economically, but not emotionally," Flanagan said.

Bank officials, who did not return calls relating to Flanagan's death, have said in the past that the deal with Indian companies would effect no more than 5 per cent of the bank's 21,000 employees, or about 1,100 jobs, in its technology and operations division.

According to some surveys, the US has lost at least 800,000 jobs in the past year and some 3.3 million jobs will move overseas over the next few years because of outsourcing, mostly to India.

The Bank has also acknowledged that it had asked local workers to train foreigners because such knowledge transfer was essential. According to Tom Flanagan, his son was "totally disgusted" with the fact that he and his fellow-workers had to train foreigners to do his job so they could take over. "That sir is a travesty," he said in one e-mail.

US tech workers are challenging the corporate world's claim that it is outsourcing work to improve bottomlines and efficiency. Some analysts have also pointed out that US corporations were being forced to tighten up by the same people who are moaning about outsourcing, and who, heavily invested in the stock market, demand better performance.

But on one website that discussed the Flanagan case, a tech worker pointed out that data processing consumed only a small per cent of revenues and was hardly a drain on the Bank's profit.

"(It is) a prosperous bank which has let greed trump any sense of patriotism or social responsibility," he fumed.


TOPICS: Front Page News
KEYWORDS: catholiclist; michaeldobbs
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To: Pukin Dog
Do you really believe our current unemployment numbers? You are aware of just how manipulated those numbers are? A 5% unemployment rate today is not the same thing as a 5% unemployment rate twenty years ago.
641 posted on 05/27/2003 9:37:09 PM PDT by Billy_bob_bob ("He who will not reason is a bigot;He who cannot is a fool;He who dares not is a slave." W. Drummond)
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To: USMMA_83
Luke buddy, I'm Navy Seal, I seriously doubt you'd kick the ***** crap out of me. But, go on....and make a fool of yourself.

Huh???????????????????????????

I think you need to go back and carefully reread my reply to you, friend. I never proposed kicking anything out of you (I'm generally not prone to violence, with the sole exception being the case of a serious and unavoidable need for self-defense or defense of the innocent).

I did, however, state that I had gotten the **** kicked out of me (figuratively speaking) -- an entirely true statement.

642 posted on 05/27/2003 9:37:25 PM PDT by Luke Skyfreeper
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To: Billy_bob_bob
You realize that that is an essentially socialist arguement don't you? The Libs say essentially the same thing about welfare.
643 posted on 05/27/2003 9:38:10 PM PDT by Dat
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To: USMMA_83
To be specific, I stated:

[G]etting the **** kicked out of you while doing your dead level best to be completely self-reliant, and to responsibly provide for others, and to have even a little bit of success, certainly makes you appreciate the help that's available to assist those who are genuinely going through hard times.

644 posted on 05/27/2003 9:41:18 PM PDT by Luke Skyfreeper
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To: Billy_bob_bob
I guess you would have to tell me who is more likely to fudge unemployment numbers.

Jimmy Carter with 11% unemployment and 24% interest rates, and Ronald Reagan breathing down his neck?

or

George W. Bush with 5% unemployment and 4% interest rates, and John Kerry nipping at his ankles.

The choice is yours.
645 posted on 05/27/2003 9:41:50 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Dat
Please read #639, #628, #624, #605, #562 and #551 for your answer. Or just #551 if you are pressed for time.
646 posted on 05/27/2003 9:42:29 PM PDT by Billy_bob_bob ("He who will not reason is a bigot;He who cannot is a fool;He who dares not is a slave." W. Drummond)
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To: Billy_bob_bob
You realize that that is an essentially socialist argument don't you? The Leftists say essentially the same thing about welfare.


647 posted on 05/27/2003 9:43:34 PM PDT by TaxRelief (Thanks for a great catch, Dat!)
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To: texastoo
The only difference between slavery of the 1800's and this is that these people are coming here voluntarily

Bastards! I can't believe it, the only difference is they have a choice </Sarcasm> <-------(I hate having to do that)
648 posted on 05/27/2003 9:46:03 PM PDT by Dat
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To: Billy_bob_bob
Feel free to recalculate the numbers yourself to determine the current unemployment rate.

Here are all the raw numbers and the answers if you need to cheat: http://www.bea.doc.gov/bea/newsrel/pi0303.htm
649 posted on 05/27/2003 9:47:26 PM PDT by TaxRelief (Dept of Commerce lies? Are you sure?)
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To: Lessismore
the real point, is that the politicians know exactly what they are doing. It is like gun control , the liberals know it is better to be armed for self defense, and they carry(or have body guards).

The politicians also know that lots of jobs are being lost thru outsourcing and by factories closing and moving to asia. They know it and dont want to stop it. They dont want to end the H1-B visa programs even though they know it would create a million american jobs in one day. They know that bringing in 57,000 more immigrants each week does not help reduce unemployment, yet they keep all these things.

They know it as well as you do.

the question is, why do want to keep doing what they are doing?

650 posted on 05/27/2003 9:47:43 PM PDT by waterstraat
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To: Pukin Dog
That is a clever and humorous reply, but it does not address the issue. Last I saw new claims for unemployment benefits were over 400K for the last thirteen weeks in a row. That's over 400 thousand newly unemployed people lining up for benefits. That's not counting those who are underemployed and those who no longer receive benefits.

BTW, as I understand it ten weeks in a row of 400K or more new unemployment claims per week is considered to be a sign of a coming recession. Not a happy sign for the economy.

The image of John Kerry "nipping at the heels" of President Bush is pretty funny, I'll give you that.
651 posted on 05/27/2003 9:48:00 PM PDT by Billy_bob_bob ("He who will not reason is a bigot;He who cannot is a fool;He who dares not is a slave." W. Drummond)
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To: Marauder
When will the trend to outsource lawyers start? Watch how fast the congress critters scramble to head that one off. They will move when it's their livelihood on the line.

Actually, the outsourcing of legal support has already begun. Many of this countries biggest law firms are already using India-based paralegal services for document preperation, and Indian call centers for telephone based legal support and appointment scheduling. It's only a matter of time until some enterprising law firm starts using video over I.P. technology to offer "remote consultations". We'll still need American lawyers in the courtrooms, of course, but most lawyers only spend a small portion of their time before a judge. Everything else they do, everything could be outsourced.

Never happen? Without protectionist laws, it's just a matter of time. It only takes one lawyer to implement this and start a firm that can operate at cut rate prices while supporting the same number (and quality) of clients as the larger firms. That lawyer could quickly undercut everyone elses prices, and force his competing firms to either slash theirs or go out of business. Problem is, how will they slash enough to compete? By laying off their own staff and outsourcing too! That, after all, is how this whole corrupt game works.

The day is coming when America will become a society dependant on foreign support to keep our systems running...and it's not that far off. What happens then when some enterprising terrorist (or po'd techie) cuts a few trans-Pacific cables? The banks don't work, the airline reservation systems don't work, the lawyers can't work, our Fortune 500 companies grind to a screeching halt, and American life as we know it effectively stops until we get the cut fixed. And you know what the worst part is? You won't even be able to call anyone and complain about it, because all of the danged call centers are in India!

Libertarianism be damned, even the founding fathers of this country understood the need to protect the nation from predatory foreign competition with defensive tarriffs! What this country needs, more than anything, is a labor tarrif. If you outsource, you pay $$ Maybe, coupled with tax cuts for corps that go outsource free, we can stem the tide of jobs leaving this country. IMO, people who would sell their nations future for a quick profit are the worst traitors of all.
652 posted on 05/27/2003 9:49:35 PM PDT by Arthalion
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To: TaxRelief
I don't know what is "socialist" about wanting to use tariffs to keep American industries and professions from being wiped out wholesale by unlimited free trade. I don't want the government to take over businesses, I don't want government to tell them who to hire or what to build or who to buy from or what to do. In fact, I would dearly love to see a whole lot of regulations REMOVED from American businesses. I would like to see the tax code simplified so that compliance becomes easier, and I would like to see wholesale reduction of the governmental burden on American businesses.

But, one "burden" that I would impose would be tariffs. A burden that every American president saw fit to impose for nearly two hundred years.
653 posted on 05/27/2003 9:55:35 PM PDT by Billy_bob_bob ("He who will not reason is a bigot;He who cannot is a fool;He who dares not is a slave." W. Drummond)
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To: Arthalion
IMO, people who would sell their nations future for a quick profit are the worst traitors of all.

IMO, this is the best post of the day month year decade.

654 posted on 05/27/2003 10:09:33 PM PDT by SwordofTruth
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To: Billy_bob_bob
Cleverness and humor, I got.

A better answer for you; I do not.

Who can know who's fudging? All I know, is that America has always risen above adversity. I understand that this period is more painful than most, after such high times only a couple years ago, but still, America will recover and prosper again.

All the finger pointing going on in this discussion is not going to accomplish anything. I believe that we make our own realities as much as life's events have an effect on us. I insist on looking at the glass as half-full.
655 posted on 05/27/2003 10:16:09 PM PDT by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: Pukin Dog
I too believe in America, and I think we will eventually prosper again as well. However, it is hard to pull yourself up by your bootstraps if your bootstraps have been auctioned off to China.

I like the idea of tax cuts, I like the idea of tax simplification, and I like the idea of reducing the amount of and the burden of regulations on American businesses. That would be a great thing for all of us. But doggone it, I just can't see what is good about allowing entire industries to be wiped out by this infernal "free trade".

When I can't buy the raw materials for less than the Chinese can produce the finished product for, then what chance do I have? If the Chinese play games with their currency to pursue their acquisition of foreign businesses what do the rest of us do? Devalue our currencies in response? This is a good thing?
656 posted on 05/27/2003 10:23:37 PM PDT by Billy_bob_bob ("He who will not reason is a bigot;He who cannot is a fool;He who dares not is a slave." W. Drummond)
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To: TaxRelief
You complain how I try to explain how the world economy and outsourcing are preventing workers such as I from adapting because we are constantly having to adapt to these destructive policies by getting 5 different skill sets in order to stay employed;

Yet somehow, i was supposed to buck up and transition to the emerging economy after defense collapsed in the Northeast with the Berlin wall?

Arent you paying attention here? That is exactly what I have been doing all along. It was 1993 I graduated with my degree, it was 787 resumes later that I got my first engineering job. I have been at two small companies that went out of business right after I left. I worked at Colt Firearms and got laid off because of the gun lawsuits because they needed lawyers more than engineers. I worked in telecom for a year and a half until june 2001.

I have been a project engineer 3 times, draftsman/designer 6 times, mechanic 6 times, tool crib attendant, assembler, whatever. I can do it all.

Guess what? All the companies that used to hire dont. And if you have a degree, and it is manual labor, they dont even look at you. No matter how much you beg.

Better think some more and address the issues, instead of attack posters who are living in a semi-permanent state of transition with no assets to make the move to better climes as you so condecendingly advise.

I have learned to adapt to more than you can imagine, and have a more rounded skill set than you ever dreamed, and due to the economy up here, I am still umemployed, and all you do is say I am self centered to point out how it is the world situation that makes it so?

I am well aware of previous life choices that have no proven to be bad: deciding to try for the olympics instead of going to college in the early 80's;

getting out of the service instead of making it a career;

leaving Kaman due to lack of work, believeing I was making a better career choice, only to see a new aircraft appear a year later, and would now have 20 years plus in the company;

changing jobs to a more difficult one to only find I was a pawn in their ploy to falsely provide a manager for a project they expected me to fail at for a company they hated and then let me go after I did the impossible for them;

Only unlike you, I choose to move ahead. Dont buck me because I see why things arent good, and dont buck me because I see what an idiotic choice all this free trade with socialist/fasicistic nations has been, those things you so readily support.

You havent got a clue. Open your eyes. I have done more foot work to stay ahead than you can ever dream.
657 posted on 05/27/2003 10:31:30 PM PDT by RaceBannon
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To: Pukin Dog
This is how things used to be in other countries, before American industry agreed to outsource a percentage of production to the buyer nation. The reality is that there are very few American-only markets left. If you want to sell abroad, you have to play by the rules of the buyer.

But that is allowing the top level management to make money in the name of the company, while allowing the workers who used to do the work to go beg bread. That is part of the issue, the work used to be done here. Airplanes WERE an American item to be bought, and there was nothing wrong with that!

'Excusing away cheaper prices as a benefit of exporting technology, by default allows for unemployed Americans whoused to make it here. people whohad jobs had income, and the more that was made here, the more money we had to spend.

Since jobs are going away, there is less income, and even now we cannot afford the foreign imports. I would exchange a little higher prices for some jobs anyday, besides, some jobs didnt pay much because the skill level was not needed to justify high wages in the first place.

People afforded things in the 50's and 60's and 70's because they had work, saved money, and spent wisely, not because of cheap imports.

658 posted on 05/27/2003 10:37:24 PM PDT by RaceBannon
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To: Luke Skyfreeper
I'm currently on a second venture. Still keeping with a low paying job to pay my bills. Of course it is hard, but it is well worth it in the end.

It's not all financially difficult as you think though. Some ventures can be quite cheap. Start of as simply a contractor. Such as my friend who paid his full tuition at college and then some by mowing yards, and getting so much work he hired buddies to help.
659 posted on 05/27/2003 10:38:28 PM PDT by Texaggie79
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To: Beck_isright
Sadly we will not have "free" trade in our lifetime, nor will we ever have our economic partners playing "fair"; world geopolitics will never allow it.

No argument there.

We might as well ratify Kyoto as the rest of the world wanted to bring us down to their economic level instead of trying to harmonize with our standards. Reality is that we can not have a world with unified laws and standards because then we would have the one world government that many despise. Realistically, we need to only trade for goods we want and need, and not be the flea market to the world.

We don't disagree on the last sentence. But I don't really consider other countries harmonizing with American law to be the same as joining a treaty that subjects some countries to different standards from others.

I wish we didn't see things the same way, that I was able to forcefully disagree with you on your more apocalyptic comments. I can't. But I haven't eaten a gun lunch either, unlike the guy that started this thread, so at heart, I have a bit of optimism that it could change for the better. We'll see.

660 posted on 05/27/2003 10:39:50 PM PDT by LibertarianInExile ("Let them eat cake!" M. Antoinette, "Fix your attitude problem and get a job!!" T. Relief)
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