Outsourcing hits US techies hard

Times of India ^ | MAY 26, 2003 | CHIDANAND RAJGHATTA

[Lessismore]

WASHINGTON: On a recent April afternoon in Silicon Valley, moments after he was told he had been laid off from his computer programming job at a Bank of America training centre, Kevin Flanagan stepped into the parking lot and shot himself dead.

Some of America's technology workers, who like Flanagan have also had to collect pink slips over the last several months, think they know why Flanagan took his life: Bank of America not only outsourced his job to India, but forced him to train Indian workers to do the job he had to give up.

In the weeks since his death, the techies have used the incident as fuel to fire a campaign against outsourcing to India, an issue that now seems poised to become a major sticking point between the two countries. Several US states are already considering legislation to ban or limit outsourcing.

Bank of America is one of several major US corporations – General Electric, Microsoft, Intel are among others - under scrutiny for outsourcing jobs to India. The Bank created what is called a "Global Delivery centre" in 2000 to identify projects that could be sent offshore.

Since then it has signed agreements with Infosys and Tata Consulting Services (TCS) to provide solutions and services.

In an e-mail exchange with this correspondent, Kevin's father Tom Flanagan said "a significant reason for which my son took his life was indeed as a result of his job being outsourced."

"Did he blame India for his job loss? No. He blamed the "system." He couldn't understand why Americans are losing jobs. Rather I should say he understood it economically, but not emotionally," Flanagan said.

Bank officials, who did not return calls relating to Flanagan's death, have said in the past that the deal with Indian companies would effect no more than 5 per cent of the bank's 21,000 employees, or about 1,100 jobs, in its technology and operations division.

According to some surveys, the US has lost at least 800,000 jobs in the past year and some 3.3 million jobs will move overseas over the next few years because of outsourcing, mostly to India.

The Bank has also acknowledged that it had asked local workers to train foreigners because such knowledge transfer was essential. According to Tom Flanagan, his son was "totally disgusted" with the fact that he and his fellow-workers had to train foreigners to do his job so they could take over. "That sir is a travesty," he said in one e-mail.

US tech workers are challenging the corporate world's claim that it is outsourcing work to improve bottomlines and efficiency. Some analysts have also pointed out that US corporations were being forced to tighten up by the same people who are moaning about outsourcing, and who, heavily invested in the stock market, demand better performance.

But on one website that discussed the Flanagan case, a tech worker pointed out that data processing consumed only a small per cent of revenues and was hardly a drain on the Bank's profit.

"(It is) a prosperous bank which has let greed trump any sense of patriotism or social responsibility," he fumed.

[TaxRelief]

They don't want anyone to provide for them, they want the opportunity to do what they were trained to do. They think they are above having to start a new career, like so many others have had to do for all of time.

</sarcasm

[mylife]

having to start a new career, like so many others have had to do for all of time.

Its a painful thing...We all wish for security but Know that the only security we have is what WE provide.

[dalereed]

Orientals make lousy pilots, they have no depth perception!

The Japanese used kamakazi pilots for a reason!

[Dave S]

THat is what is going on here in AMerica. You are letting in competition who did not pay for the right to do business in America or who did not pay for the right to do business with corporations that depend upon the AMerican market.

By your logic, if I buy a house and do not care of it up to your standards, then I do not have the right to keep the house if someone who is a more competent caretaker.

Sorry I dont follow either of these analogies. Help?

[mylife]

with all the woes of America..I am glad to be An American.
I do worry that we tip our hand to other countries though.
Time for America to take stock.
Good night to you all and good luck....:^ )

[LibertarianInExile]

That's right. I'm in 100% complete agreement with you.

The problem is that in opening our doors we put OUR companies up against companies that have had their governments NOT interceding in their staffing, safety, and export of products. That means our companies will lose, we will lose our economic base, and it will be GONE.

I'm all for open borders and free trade. But let's have it, instead of NAFTA, GATT, and the WTO. Those aren't free trade--they're giving away American jobs in the hopes that countries which will eventually have economic advantages over our own will then love us and treat us nice. Which is just fantasy.

No, what you and your buddies believe is that if we turn the other cheek and let them slap us silly economically, they'll eventually let us compete with them. Someday. When they get big and smart and multiculturally equitable like us.

Fat freaking chance that'll happen.

[LibertyAndJusticeForAll]

http://www.h1b.info/

Add Siemens, Sun Microsystems and Cigna to the list of companies.

The above link yielded these links below and more. Lots of good info on outsourcing, H-1B and L-1 visas.

http://www.bayarea.com/mld/cctimes/5848767.htm?template=contentModules/printstory.jsp

http://db.mindsharedesign.com/d0002/cgi-bin/archive.pl?action=display&list=tancredo&msgid=1052761234.22667

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?msid=43599067

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/html/uncomp/articleshow?msid=43599067

[LibertarianInExile]

You slay me.

That's shuttin' his yap right up.

[Beck_isright]

"(It is) a prosperous bank which has let greed trump any sense of patriotism or social responsibility," he fumed."

The line that has stuck out in this article among some of the absolutely absurd posts I spent the last hour reading.

1. Companies have no required "sense of patriotism". They are required by law to not divulge secrets of a military or industrial nature which will not injure the security of our country but nothing less. If they want to wave the flag, God Bless them and I'm all for it.
"Social responsibility" does not include a jobs program. More on that later.

2. I've read postings now calling for "boycotts" of companies outsourcing overseas. Ok boys and girls, who's quitting FR? Because if you're a 100% loyal boycotter, you'll quit using your computer as most of the components and assembly is done overseas which cost American jobs. Now the software installs are done also. And even many internet functions (customer service, billing, etc.) are outsourced overseas. If you're serious about a boycott, announce your intention to leave FR and burn your PC today. Otherwise, grow up and read on.

3. Personally speaking, this situation disgusts me. Do I blame corporations? No.

So who is to blame?

You. The person reading this.
Myself. The individual typing this posting.
Your neighbor.
And the idiots in all these articles who lose their jobs and then when they find out they were outsourced to (blank) (fill in the name of your favorite 2nd world nation here) they get upset.

WE as a people have allowed the socialist engineers to regulate and design tax policy to stifle corporate and individual initiative to a great degree. Proof? I could start another company for myself tommorrow. However because of the startup costs incurred due to federal regulations, I would not be profitable for over 260 days (estimated). So what's the point? I'm not going to create another business to feed the pig in D.C. Nor am I going to create a "jobs program" to feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

4. The Solution????????????????

Take a look at our nation's history. When our economy expanded rapidly (pre-1980) we generally had low income taxes and higher tariffs to fund the pig in D.C. Now we have flipped the scenario. We have created new regulations for the most absurd reasons (thus creating the "trial lawyer" industry), increased income taxes on those "evil" rich folks (that's any single filer earning more than $52,000 from the demorat perspective by the way), and increase corporate fees and taxes which are passed on to the consumer.

If you want to quit losing not just "jobs" but entire freaking corporations, roll back the tax monster created and fed by both parties in D.C. Until then, shut up and let capitalists be the last freedom loving individuals left. These corporations have done nothing you or I wouldn't do in a similar situation. But if you protest differently, and say you would be more "patriotic" then you are not a capitalist, you are a communist. Rant off....

[LibertyAndJusticeForAll]

I am a Christian Conservative.

At this link:
http://www.h1b.info/

I learned a great deal including that the Republican Congressman, Tom Tancredo from Colorado is working to end/limit H-1B visas.
And, I also learned that Hillary Clinton is for outsourcing.

I think this will be a big issue in the next election and I hope that common sense prevails (something you seem to be a bit short on - just this evening I hope).

[Texaggie79]

Not to get into it with you, but something that totally opened my eyes was working for a man who owned his own business.

Something many American workers never understand is that getting a job does not require a help wanted sign. What made America what it is is entrepreneurs who found a need and filled it. They didn't polish up resumes hoping some big company would hire them. They CREATED their own job.

There is nothing wrong with being a salary worker under a "secure job". You are providing a service for your employer and are compensated for it. However, the trick is not falling into the belief that an employer is required for work. Simply a need in the market is required.

[NEWwoman]

Thanks for sharing your faith and I can see that it gives you hope to keep going.

I was in a similar situation in the mid-1990s. Both my husband and I lost our good jobs. It took about two years to find good work again.

It seemed for a while that God was playing some kind of cruel cosmic joke on us. We sold our house and were lead back to California of all places - a place my husband never wanted to go back to - yet here we are. We rejoined the church we were in in the 1980s and got involved.

A Christian radio program - Thru the Bible - will be starting this week in the Book of Job. Quite appropriate for these times. Now, this guy really lost everything, except his wife and his faith.

[Incorrigible]

Race,

You might consider applying your time and tech skills to political campaigns. You wouldn't be the first techie to make the transition.

Plus, what candidate wouldn't want a human bullhorn such as yourself?! I think you'd be a great part of a team.

[danmar]

Mercedes owns Chrysler

Wrong,...it is a merger between Daimler Benz AG (which just so happen' to produce the Mercedes Benz) and Chrysler Corp., hence the new Company DaimlerChrysler.
Of course Daimler Benz has the upper hand as a controlling entity.

The difference is, in regards to a regular take over, that the "taken" company's name is not showing up on the official display(GMSaab/ FordJaguar /FerrariLamborghini etc.)

...still working for/with Chrysler for the passed 24 Years...

[dfwgator]

they are not "out working" or "out thinking" the americans, they are working for 1/10th the wages, with a much lower living standard. At 1/10th the wages, the american worker has no chance of competing.

Exactly!! They don't have to be better, just "good enough."

[Texaggie79]

There, can be our only true hope. Know this, God has you where you are for a reason. It will take as long as it takes, but in the end, you will be where you are meant to be. From what I, and I'm sure you have as well, have experienced, you will probably end up somewhere you never expected.....

[LibertarianInExile]

PD, which is it? Do you stick with your original statement, that you make your own choices, and you risked your life intentionally, and we shouldn't care more for you because you do just because you happened to choose soldiering? Or is it that you were risking your life for God and Country and we should not call you on anything, even if you just happened to get trained and paid damn well for it?

That's right, you hang by your own necktie either way...and either way, you haven't responded to the fact that this Dale Carnegie crap is all coming from someone whose livelihood has been propped up by the government 100%, which certainly has some impact on whether we should join in with the pom poms and megaphone (see my post 289).

[Lurker]

Or selling Insurance.

L

[texastoo]

WE as a people have allowed the social engineers to regulate and design our tax policy.......

WE as a people have been out-snookered by slick politicians in both parties. How many bills have been passed in the late night hours? How mny bills have been passed with a show of hands with only maybe 5 present?

We elected what we thought to be a President that would uphold America's laws. Now we are being forced to pay for welfare, SSI, health care, education of peopple who are in this country illegally.

India also lobbies our congress with big bucks. Now, if what I have read is true, India is going to force this issue via the WTO.

Are you going to tell me that many of our capitalist corporations are not paying big bucks through lobbying to our congressmen? Especially, when many of the congressmen's wives are hired by these corporations that we the American taxpayer are forced to subsidize?

Good luck on rolling back the tax. Good idea. Unfortunately, you won't have a say in this and neither will I.

[Texaggie79]

If our economy can put less into the product or service, and receive the same product or service, we, as a whole, are better off.

Money is created by, in simple terms, work. Hold a dollar in your hand and know that that represents a certain amount of another human being's time, through work. Most say "goods and services" however both are products of someone's work. Now, to get paid what IT workers are being paid, others must work in order to pay that fee.

Now, if other workers, elsewhere, can produce the same product or service for LESS, that will result in less work being required for the fee of those workers. Now, the amount of work in our economy remaining a constant, that frees up funds, derived from work, to be spent elsewhere.

This is why you see small tribes in africa with a very low standard of living, and a LARGE population such as the US with a very high standard. The less work you have in an economy, the poorer that economy will be while the more work you have in an economy, the richer it will be (All this assuming that the economy is a FREE market).

The Commie/union mind-set is one of an uneducated theory. They believe that each person is meant for a specific job. If said job is not needed, or does not pay enough, then that person is simply out of luck, and something must be done so that that person can work in said job and be paid what they require for living.

The problem with that theory is that it traps an economy. A free market requires that workers be willing to fill whatever need necessary. Therefore, the amount of work/money remains constant while the market adapts to whatever is in need. To best serve that economy, each need must be met in the MOST efficient manner. This means that the less a good or service costs to make or perform, the better for everyone in that economy.

This means that from the standpoint of a worker who believes "I do this, only this, and nothing else.", it can be a negative. However, an economy should not halt itself just so a few "set in their ways" workers can keep living off their profession in the same manner that they have always performed it.