[Semper Paratus]

many Vatican observers have been shocked at what they see as the punitive and unforgiving response to priestly misconduct in American culture.

Really, they think American parents overreact when preists bugger their children?

[McGavin999]

I fear the people who surround the Pope are not exactly holy men. I hope that when it comes time to elect a new Pope that a good strong man will step into JP's shoes. If JP were still in the flower of his youth, this would not be happening.

[F16Fighter]

The editorial said the most urgent task now is to “reestablish international legality, wounded by the ‘unilateralism’ of the United States.” It called for the United Nations, not the United States, to direct the post-war work in Iraq.

The Vatican is soooo out of whack on this issue that one wonders if it actually has a stake and design on somehow leading a suggested UN-proxied/One World Government?

It is Power, not saving souls that the "new" Vatican seems most interested in these days...

[prairiebreeze]

“have clearly shown that there were not sufficient reasons for moving against Iraq, because the country did not constitute a true threat for the United States and its allies.”

So mass graves, frivolous executions, rape, tree shredders, acid baths, electrocution and tyranny mean nothing to the leaders of the Catholic Church?

These men don't sound much different at all from the tyrrants who abused the power of the Church during Quasimodo's time.

John Paul is so frail, I frankly don't think he authorizes any of this anti-American stuff.

Prairie

[theFIRMbss]

>the Vatican has again criticized American policy in remarkably strong terms

This amazing book --
presented as semi-fact --
flat out alleges

that the Catholic Church
today is undergoing
a tough, civil war,

with conservative
Christian Catholics fighting
"worldly" almost

anti-Christian blocs
within the Church. (At one point,
the author presents

a scene where the pope
is threatened by a US
politician with

assassination
if the pope were to speak out
about the US

agenda to link
"population control" to
foreign policy...)

[AlaskaErik]

In the lead editorial of its May 17 issue, the journal asserted that “the United States has put international law in crisis.”

The lack of the rest of the world in responding to numerous massacres in Africa, the Middle East and eastern Europe, which have cost millions upon millions their lives, has done much more to put international law in crisis than our liberation of Afghanistan and Iraq. These idiots still don't get it.

[John Beresford Tipton]

"No one should be shocked...the next time
Civiltà Cattolica takes America to task."

Nor should anyone give a $hit

[Faraday]

SS, Thanks for this post. It provides context for many of the recent Vatican actions and statements. I see the "clash of civilization" and "Calvanist" issues. However, these Church leaders don't seem to be aware that what is being responded to is a long 10 - 20 year, anti-American, terrorist campaign. America's usual reaction to cultural and political differences is "who the hell cares, let's do business." But after being attacked multiple times with ever increasing degrees of viciousness and casualties, we finally said "Enough!" We, then, cast the issue as a moral one from which we would not retreat or compromise. If so-called religious leaders of all faiths had been guiding their followers to reject fanatic terrorism, this situation would not have arisen.

Politically, the Vatican (along with the leadership of other mainline Christian sects) stands firmly in the camp of the Axis of Weasels. I wonder if they realize where that commitment will take the world?

[demlosers]

Catholic faith.” American society, he said, “is the civil counterpart of a faith based on private interpretation of Scripture and private experience of God.” He contrasted this kind of society with one based on the Catholic Church's teaching of community and a vision of life greater than the individual.

So this is why the Vatican was against the US Iraqi war? The Catholic Church is still fighting Protestant reformation of 500 years ago. They still think in terms of Protestants vs. Catholics. No wonder Condi is confused.

In the view of some in the Vatican, underlying both the harsh American response on sexual abuse, and its dualistic approach to foreign policy, is the legacy of Calvinism. The Calvinist concepts of the total depravity of the damned, the unconditional election of God’s favored, and the manifestation of election through earthly success, all seem to them to play a powerful role in shaping American cultural psychology

"Dualistic approach to foreign policy..." Huh? "Total depravity of the damned..." You guys having trouble spotting the bad guys? "The unconditional election of God's favored, and the manifestation of election through earthly success... What? you guys whining about Bush's 2000 victory? Because Bush is a pious person who’s not Catholic?

[Torie]

Don't you think this Calvinist analysis of what makes American culture tick is way overdone? Interestingly, the descendents of the Calvinists (New Englanders and their diaspora) tend to be somewhat liberal, and somewhat less hawkish and judgmental, then the population at large. It is the the scions of the Caviliers that tend to be the flag wavers, along with a chunk of the American Catholic community. Something is missing here. What is missing is how this culture was shaped by our geography, and the rather non random personality types who immigrated here.

[LadyDoc]

the vatican diplomatic office, like the US state department, is full of "one world" types who stress cooperation.

Hopefully, as more African and Asians join the diplomatic corp, we will see a slightly different point of view. After all, many of them have openly opposed tyrannies...and massacres.

[CatoRenasci]

Anyone familiar with the intellectual history of the West since the beginning of the 18th century cannot be surprised at any of this.

The hostility of the Church to the Enlighetnment and the English philosphers upon whose work political and social system of the United States is grounded throughout the 18th and 19th centuries, was consistent and thorough-going. It's hostility to the spread of classical liberal ideas in Europe in the early 19th century was profound, as the article suggested.

The Church was almost at war with the liberal Savoyard monarchy in Italy from the beginning, and its hostility unremitting after the French pulled their troops out of Rome in 1870 and left the Pope to his fate. It was only the fascist Mussolini who reconciled the Italian state with the Vatican, which has never mentally recovered from the loss of its temporal power.

The Church made common cause with the Anglo-Saxon powers against communism after World War II, but has always been, and remains, unreconciled to the separation of Church and State, and to the notions of individual liberty and freedom of religion that are central to the American experience. Not only that, the Church was always hostile to capitalism, and has always been more comfortable philosophically with feudalism and later 'Christian' socialism and a command economy -- much more in line with the Great Chain of Being of the medieval Catholic philosophical synthesis.

The United States does have a history of anti-Catholicism, but it was primarily based on the accurate perception the the Church disliked everything America stood for: Protestant Christianity, religious liberty, individual liberty, and economic liberty.

[Yardstick]

Interesting post and a good thread.

My question is, what is the attitude of the Orthodox Church towards the administration and the war in Iraq (and the United States in general)?

As an institution, the Orthodox Church is similar to the Roman Catholic Church, but its differences -- it was never a political power in Western Europe, it was a step removed from the Protestant Reformation, etc -- make me curious about its thinking on these matters and how it compares to the Catholic Church's. Is the Orthodox Church troubled by American "Calvinism"? Does it worry about things like American unilateralism and its effect on international law?

[FITZ]

George said that U.S. citizens “are culturally Calvinist, even those who profess the Catholic faith.” American society, he said, “is the civil counterpart of a faith based on private interpretation of Scripture and private experience of God.” He contrasted this kind of society with one based on the Catholic Church's teaching of community and a vision of life greater than the individual.

I don't see what is wrong with being a Calvinist-tainted Catholic. Individualism is what made this country a strong country ---individual responsibility versus collectivism.

[Porterville]

On the crisis, many Vatican observers have been shocked at what they see as the punitive and unforgiving response to priestly misconduct in American culture. Certainly no one in the Holy See defends the sexual abuse of minors, and most realize that the Church left itself vulnerable because of its history of covering up wrongdoing. Still, the clamor for permanent removal from the priesthood of men with even one offense, potentially decades in the past, seems excessive to many in Rome. Even more puzzling was the decision of the American bishops in Dallas to craft policy based on this unforgiving standard.

Is this a perv's lament??? Puzzling?? Tie a damn stone to your leg and through yourself into a lake. How's that for puzzling??

[dagoofyfoot]

The Catholic Church has taken something Holy and perverted it into something that is barely recognizable anymore. I don't know why any Christians of sound mind would even attend their services anymore, much less than throw anymore money into their coffers.


This institution is beyond defending anymore. Period.