U.S versus Vatican: A clash of cultures

National Catholic Reporter ^ | 5/23/2003 | John L. Allen

[Torie]

Don't you think this Calvinist analysis of what makes American culture tick is way overdone? Interestingly, the descendents of the Calvinists (New Englanders and their diaspora) tend to be somewhat liberal, and somewhat less hawkish and judgmental, then the population at large. It is the the scions of the Caviliers that tend to be the flag wavers, along with a chunk of the American Catholic community. Something is missing here. What is missing is how this culture was shaped by our geography, and the rather non random personality types who immigrated here.

[LadyDoc]

the vatican diplomatic office, like the US state department, is full of "one world" types who stress cooperation.

Hopefully, as more African and Asians join the diplomatic corp, we will see a slightly different point of view. After all, many of them have openly opposed tyrannies...and massacres.

[CatoRenasci]

Anyone familiar with the intellectual history of the West since the beginning of the 18th century cannot be surprised at any of this.

The hostility of the Church to the Enlighetnment and the English philosphers upon whose work political and social system of the United States is grounded throughout the 18th and 19th centuries, was consistent and thorough-going. It's hostility to the spread of classical liberal ideas in Europe in the early 19th century was profound, as the article suggested.

The Church was almost at war with the liberal Savoyard monarchy in Italy from the beginning, and its hostility unremitting after the French pulled their troops out of Rome in 1870 and left the Pope to his fate. It was only the fascist Mussolini who reconciled the Italian state with the Vatican, which has never mentally recovered from the loss of its temporal power.

The Church made common cause with the Anglo-Saxon powers against communism after World War II, but has always been, and remains, unreconciled to the separation of Church and State, and to the notions of individual liberty and freedom of religion that are central to the American experience. Not only that, the Church was always hostile to capitalism, and has always been more comfortable philosophically with feudalism and later 'Christian' socialism and a command economy -- much more in line with the Great Chain of Being of the medieval Catholic philosophical synthesis.

The United States does have a history of anti-Catholicism, but it was primarily based on the accurate perception the the Church disliked everything America stood for: Protestant Christianity, religious liberty, individual liberty, and economic liberty.

[CatoRenasci]

I think in this case the term "Calvinist" in Vatican thinking is their short-hand for "Protestant." However, I don't think the reference to America's essential Calvinism is entirely misplaced.

While New England, and many New England Protestants, are now liberal, you should recall that New England, especially the heavily Democratic states of Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Rhode Island (Vermont is an odd exception) have large Catholic populations who constitute the mainstay of the Democratic party there. While there are liberal WASPS, there is also a strong representation among New England Republicans of old stock Protestants.

In the South, the majority of the population outside of Texas and Louisiana is probably still Protestant, but they are hardly all Epsicopalian descendents of English royalists who fled Cromwell - the "Cavaliers" of Southern Myth. In fact, the Calvinist Presbyterians (strongly Scots) are strong in the South, and are the Methodists and Baptists, who come out of dissenting traditions from the Church of England similary to that of the more Calvinist Puritan Congregationalists of New Engand.

[Torie]

You make a lot of good points, but in my experience, the Yankee Wasp Republican descendants tend to be "Rinos," as am I to some degree, and I am from that tradition. That being said, and acknowledging that the South has boatloads of Scotch Irish (quite where to plug them into this matrix I am not sure), I really think that the American ideology has more to do with its unique experiences, than European religious ideological echoes.

[Torie]

I might add, that in New England, the partisan diffences these days between Protestant Yankees, and Catholics, is very marginal. Both favor the Democrats, except in New Hampshire, where both favor the Pubbies by a slim but discernable margin (a vote with your feet thingie), and in Maine, where chaos reigns, and where nobody can figure the place out from a psephological perspective.

[CatoRenasci]

The Scots Irish were primarily Protestant (Presbyterian - Calvinist) Scots who were settled in Ireland after Cromwell's suppression of the Irish rebellion, and came to these states originally through the Carolinas and Georgia. They, in fact, made up the strongest strain of actual Calvinism in the South.

I think it's the combination of our European religious heritage (recall, all but the Virigina colony and Dutch New York were originally settled by religious dissenters from the Church of England), the ideas of the English philsophers (Hobbes, Locke, Hume, Adam Smith, Dugald Stewart, etc.), the unique English poltical tradition of Magna Charta, the Revolution and the English Bill of Rights, combined with the unique experience in the wilderness of America, that formed our uniquely American consciousness.

Colonists from other nations - French, Dutch, Spanish and Portuguese - also came to the Americas and had very different worldviews and created vastly different social and economic systems. The only one even close to ours was the Dutch experience in New York, which ended too early to really see how it would have played out. The Dutch colony did lack the sense of equality that took root in New England, but was probably more tolerant than all but Rhode Island.

[Yardstick]

Interesting post and a good thread.

My question is, what is the attitude of the Orthodox Church towards the administration and the war in Iraq (and the United States in general)?

As an institution, the Orthodox Church is similar to the Roman Catholic Church, but its differences -- it was never a political power in Western Europe, it was a step removed from the Protestant Reformation, etc -- make me curious about its thinking on these matters and how it compares to the Catholic Church's. Is the Orthodox Church troubled by American "Calvinism"? Does it worry about things like American unilateralism and its effect on international law?

[Torie]

Good point about the influence of the mother Home Counties. Britain had a certain heritage, that carried on. Beyond that, it is a matter of weighting the various factors which you mention, that causes me to dissent in part (I acknowledge that all you mention were factors). I give the greatest weight to the frontier, and the geographic impact of America as a whole (rich and bountiful, with a lot of elbowroom, and on impact of at once both adopting and defeating Native American culture and peoples), and to the British philosophical tradition, that was only in part a construct of Calvinism, and not the most important part. Which of the two was most important? I'm not sure.

[FITZ]

George said that U.S. citizens “are culturally Calvinist, even those who profess the Catholic faith.” American society, he said, “is the civil counterpart of a faith based on private interpretation of Scripture and private experience of God.” He contrasted this kind of society with one based on the Catholic Church's teaching of community and a vision of life greater than the individual.

I don't see what is wrong with being a Calvinist-tainted Catholic. Individualism is what made this country a strong country ---individual responsibility versus collectivism.

[jwalsh07]

NE Irish Catholic= Union =Democrat

But not necessarily "liberal".

[freedumb2003]

>>Because Bush is a pious person who’s not Catholic?<<

Amazing how the Vatican is so silent on the now-officially-confirmed breaking of so many commandments by the only Catholic President.

The Vatican is like the UN -- looking for absolute power well beyond its actual basis for same. That's why they have thrown their lot in with the desire for a World Government. The only pure biblical government is socialism.

[FITZ]

All of the Americas had a "frontier". The Spaniards as well as the British colonies had similar circumstances. I think the mother country and it's culture had more an effect.

[FITZ]

I think it's the combination of our European religious heritage (recall, all but the Virigina colony and Dutch New York were originally settled by religious dissenters from the Church of England), the ideas of the English philsophers (Hobbes, Locke, Hume, Adam Smith, Dugald Stewart, etc.), the unique English poltical tradition of Magna Charta, the Revolution and the English Bill of Rights, combined with the unique experience in the wilderness of America, that formed our uniquely American consciousness.

I think if there had been a different pattern by the original settling ---the Spaniards in the area of the 13 colonies and the British in the area of Mexico and South America ---we'd see a total reverse of how things are ---it would be people headed south over the Rio Grande escaping crushing poverty.

[Torie]

The only thing you missed in your thoughtful post is climate, and its effect on the structure of society which reaps the fruit of the land. If you divide the globe into climatic zones, certain commonalities and differences will manifest themselves. Having mentioned that, it doesn't explain all, not be a long shot. Otherwise, the Ukraine would be Kansas East, and it isn't.

[FITZ]

I can see how climate affected the Indians who were here ---the Indians in Canada and the colder states of the USA were more nomadic ---but that didn't make the British more nomadic. I can see some climate considerations in explaining why some Indians in Mexico had cities and irrigation ---although some groups like the Tarahumaras still live in the stone age ---but in a warm climate. I don't think climate explains why Canadians are wealthy compared to Mexicans ---since it was the reverse before the Europeans came.

[Torie]

Read Guns, Germs and Steel. Make it you next book to read in fact. Trust me.

[Torie]

Just to give you a taste of it all. Termperate climates required temperate crops and animals to really bloom. Those came from the Tigres and Euphartes region, for reasons I won't go into here. Their importation into the New World was a key to what followed. Ditto, Australia, New Zealand, and Argentina (the latter being a topic of more discussion).

[Porterville]

On the crisis, many Vatican observers have been shocked at what they see as the punitive and unforgiving response to priestly misconduct in American culture. Certainly no one in the Holy See defends the sexual abuse of minors, and most realize that the Church left itself vulnerable because of its history of covering up wrongdoing. Still, the clamor for permanent removal from the priesthood of men with even one offense, potentially decades in the past, seems excessive to many in Rome. Even more puzzling was the decision of the American bishops in Dallas to craft policy based on this unforgiving standard.

Is this a perv's lament??? Puzzling?? Tie a damn stone to your leg and through yourself into a lake. How's that for puzzling??

[dagoofyfoot]

The Catholic Church has taken something Holy and perverted it into something that is barely recognizable anymore. I don't know why any Christians of sound mind would even attend their services anymore, much less than throw anymore money into their coffers.


This institution is beyond defending anymore. Period.