US slob 'framed' Col. Tim

The Sun ^ | June 22, 2003 | NEIL SYSON and JOHN KAY

[arjay]

I hope this is not really based on such a petty thing. There seems to be a large difference in culture between the British and American forces.

[Bedford Forrest]

I hope this is not really based on such a petty thing.

So you consider gross insubordination and rank insolence to a senior officer to be "petty"? The punk major should have been stripped of his insignia and horsewhipped, naked. Any questions? BTW, are you with the NY Slimes?

[STD]

Nope, this is just the regular army getting in touch with the SPECIAL Forces. It's always like this. Fancy grandstanders like Collins can't get enough of themselves. The real warriors never speak with such bravado. Collins is an asshole with an overinflated opinion of British culture. Turd World don't you know.

[daddypatriot]

I can speak from experience about idiots who happen to become U.S. military officers. A few dummies always slip through the cracks. I had a couple of jackasses for officers when I was in the Army in the late 1950s. Back then the higher-ups usually sent them packing. The nicest officer I ever met was a major general who had lost his son in Korea. The worst was a lieutenant colonel who came up through the ranks after getting a battlefield commission in World War II. We all cheered when his commission was not renewed. I was told he was sent back to the states to spend his last two years as a master sergeant. I guess that was for pension purposes. He was not only vile and ill-mannered but a complete F....up.

[AEMILIUS PAULUS]

An honest question. Must an American soldier obey or heed a foreign nation's military officers ?

[LaraCroft]

That slobbish American was lucky he didn't get his teeth busted in for such shameful and disgraceful behaviour.

He definately deserved it.

[katze]

If I had to go to war, I'd rather be beside COL Collins, or most any other "SPECIAL Forces" troop, over a candy-handing weenie major, any day of the week.

OTOH, been there, done that, and know the difference; if you haven't been exposed to these highly trained forces (adding Rangers, and others who work their asses off to even get through the training), I suggest you read up on it.

[katze]

In this case, absolutely, since COL Collins was the commander in the area; Iraq was/is a coalition situation.

[Pukin Dog]

You have it Ass backwards.

Collins is a good man, and this was a discraceful petty incident. No Major talks to a Colonel that way, whether they respect him or not. If you do not respect rank, you do not respect the service you are supposed to represent.

The US Army, Franks not withstanding, is a JOKE among the elite services. Clinton destroyed that section of our forces with his stupid Beret tricks and social engineering. Why else would Rummy be working so hard to ax most of the current Army leadership?

But I'll bet you think Rummy is an asshole too?

[muawiyah]

The way the Brits look at some elements of personal demeanor and the way we look at the same thing is different. They also have a totally different sense of personal privacy.

To a degree the Brits are more alien to us than are the Iraqis.

The best thing all around is to keep Brit officers away from Americans of all ranks. This will minimize the conflict since it's usually the Brit officers who first decide to become cheeky.

[Tailback]

I hope this is not really based on such a petty thing. There seems to be a large difference in culture between the British and American forces.

If this report is true, then the problem is that this American Major is a dirtbag. This is behavior that wouldn't be acceptable of a PFC let alone a Major. Maybe the reason why this Major was attached to a British unit instead of leading US troops is this type of behavior. Of course, these are just allegations right now, I'm sure we'll know (most of) the truth soon enough.

[GATOR NAVY]

The "obey" part probably depends on how the chain of command works, but military courtesy is always expected. I work on a joint base, and I salute JMSDF officers as I would any USN officer.

[ztiworoh]

Everything Ive read of the Colonel makes me see him as an honorable man and a more than competent soldier. I believe that this is the complaints of one disgruntled man which have been picked up by leftist media types to discredit a thouroughly successful operation which they all vehemently oppose.

If you haven't read his speech to his men on the eve of war READ IT NOW! Absolutely riveting material, the man is not only a soldier but a wordsmith aswell.

For your convenience, here's the text of his speech:

"The enemy should be in no doubt that we are his Nemesis and that we are bringing about his rightful destruction. There are many regional commanders who have stains on their souls and they are stoking the fires of Hell for Saddam. As they die they will know their deeds have brought them to this place. Show them no pity. But those who do not wish to go on that journey, we will not send. As for the others, I expect you to rock their world.
"We go to liberate, not to conquer. We will not fly our flags in their country. We are entering Iraq to free a people, and the only flag that will be flown in that ancient land is their own. Don't treat them as refugees, for they are in their own country.

"I know men who have taken life needlessly in other conflicts. They live with the mark of Cain upon them. If someone surrenders to you, then remember they have that right in international law, and ensure that one day they go home to their family. The ones who wish to fight, well, we aim to please. If there are casualties of war, then remember, when they woke up and got dressed in the morning they did not plan to die this day. Allow them dignity in death. Bury them properly, and mark their graves.

"You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest, for your deeds will follow you down history. Iraq is steeped in history. It is the site of the Garden of Eden, of the Great Flood, and the birth of Abraham. Tread lightly there. You will have to go a long way to find a more decent, generous and upright people than the Iraqis. You will be embarrassed by their hospitality, even though they have nothing...."

"There may be people among us who will not see the end of this campaign. We will put them in their sleeping bags and send them back. There will be no time for sorrow. Let's leave Iraq a better place for us having been there. Our business now, is north."

[joesnuffy]

American troops should not be under the command of Brits and vice versa

nontheless... the order to not throw candy from the trucks was a good one
Saw this in Vietnam...and the kids did get run over from time to time...not to mention
letting kids close makes them able to be used by the enemy to chuck fragmentation grenades det packs or be used as human bombs..

sounds to me like the Brit is just breaking some b*llz...American that is...for him to lock an officer at attention and allow his enlisted personnel to walk past smirking etc...was everybit as wrong as the insubordination..

This should have been taken to the American CO and let him meet out the punishment imo

[marktwain]

An honest question. Must an American soldier obey or heed a foreign nation's military officers ?

Well, it depends. The question is how is the chain of command organized. It is usually pretty well spelled out.

This article is written so informally, with informants not named, it just doesn't smell right to me. I've noticed a consistancy in many of the British stories that somehow seem to always find an american soldier or two that fits their stereotype of brutish, slovenly, and what they think of as "cowboy". I don't get these stories from imbeded reporters. There reporting which has a much more realistic "flavor" to it shows the Americans to be pretty well disciplined with a soft spot for the natives.

I'd like to see some othe confirmation about this from other sources before I come to any conclusion. I'd like to find this unnamed major and hear his side of it, for one thing.

[Pukin Dog]

I have served with British Officers, and have found them to be nothing but professionals of the highest order.

I wish I could say the same about some officers from our own Army.

[muawiyah]

At the moment all we have are allegations ~ both ways. However, even if he manages to beat the warcrimes rap the Brit has to account for forcing an American stand at attention as an object of ridicule for 45 minutes in front of other soldiers, including enlisted men.

Again, the best way to prevent cultural conflicts like this is to keep the Brit officers out of the picture.

[meenie]

A sad commentary on a major. He should be busted to E-2. In mixed forces the rank carries the authority. Without rank and discipline an army becomes a mob. To top this off, the US najor tries to use a political scheme to get back at the Brit colonel. What a sorry spectacle.

[Pukin Dog]

No, it was 100% correct. There is no room for insubordination in the military. It is NOT a democracy. That brit should have broken more than balls, he could have cracked his head open.

Officers are supposed to set examples of bearing, appearance and attitude. The Major is lucky to have gotten off so lightly.

[muawiyah]

Let's see if I parsed your second sentence correction ~ you have said NO American officer behaves professionally.

If you'd like to reconsider what you said, OK, on the other hand I suspect I get an idea of why you might prefer Brit officers. Might be a good thing for you to move there.