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Reasonable People Cannot Always Agree To Disagree
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| 5/12/2003
| Marvin Galloway
Posted on 05/12/2003 8:23:00 PM PDT by MHGinTN
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To: MHGinTN
Thanks Marvin. Abortion is the horrific culmination to a series of irrational "choices".
101
posted on
05/13/2003 4:38:44 AM PDT
by
PGalt
To: WarSlut
When thinking of birth certificates, it makes me wonder why the state would issue a death certificate, for a stillborn baby that was naturally miscarried. Don't many say that a baby isn't a baby until it is born and has taken its first breath?
To: ffusco
Got you beat, can't draw a line at 7 months. I was born at 6 months (just over 3 lbs) in 1974. (Don't know how long in the incubator.)
To: VeritatisSplendor
PS Do you really think a fetal human being, growing, taking in oxygen and nutrition and synthesizing molecules and growing and moving and reacting to stimuli and excreting waste and even learning in a simple way, is not alive in the scientific sense? Why is it necessary to resort to a disingenuous use of words? Why not say exactly what you mean? A tumor is alive. A worm is alive and taking in oxygen and nutrition and synthesizing molecules and growing and moving and reacting to stimuli and excreting waste.
Who questions whether a fetus is alive? Why to you people keep asking the same question?
Words have meaning, like it or not. If you go to the store and ask for a pound of chicken and when you get home you discover you've been given a pound fertilized chicken eggs, you won't be satisfied with the argument that a fertilized and developing chicken "fetus" is a chicken.
You know what it means to say, "don't count your chickens 'til they hatch." That's why the census does not count people 'til they're born; because, their not people yet.
Hank
To: VeritatisSplendor
Hank, I've heard this too many times before. The government forbids you to ingest cocaine. Does that mean that it's likely to turn around and force you to ingest cocaine? I guess you are unaware of how many children in this country are forced to take drugs by the government that presumes to protect us from drugs.
A society will not make anything compulsory unless it first makes it a good...
Who is "society? Are you society? Has society now made the forced drugging of children good?
Think it through. I'm opposed to abortion, but no abortionist is a threat to me, or to anyone else who is opposed to abortion. The government is a threat to everyone.
Hank
To: Sloth
So, what do you think begins at birth?
Hank
To: patriciaruth
God cares, Hank. What can I say? He cared about slavery and the Holocaust, and He heard the anguished cries of the Iraqis. God cares, and I care, and you care, but God did not put a gun into our hands and say, "my childern, take these guns and go out into the world and force everyone to behave they way we want them to."
To: MHGinTN
Christianity, Libertarianism, and Abortion
Are Christianity and Libertarianism at war over abortion?
by Mark Andrew Johnson
Candidate - U.S. House of Representatives District 8 2002
http://www.markforusrep.com -
mjohnson@markforusrep.com To answer the question we must first define the terms:
Libertarianism: The acceptance that all mankind is free to do as he pleases as long as he does not violate the rights of another individual (this does not mean there are no personal consequences, just no government intervention), if the person does violate the rights of another person then it is a crime.
Christianity: The acceptance of Jesus the Christs sacrifice upon the cross for the forgiveness of mankinds sin and the following of the precepts of the Bible.
Abortion: The destruction of an embryo.
Before we address the issue of the embryo, it should be conceded that the mans sperm and womans egg have no perpetual life and are designed to die. It is therefore true of these cells that the man or woman are clear to do with them as they please; however though not all things that can be done should be done from a moral perspective.
The question now is what happens when these two cells (sperm and egg) merge into an embryo. The embryo unlike its components is no longer destined to be ejected from the body, but now maintains its own self-perpetuation. Though the embryo is reliant upon the nurturing from the mother, it is still self-replicating and requires no additional external support or design to continue its growth (except nourishment).
What then distinguished the embryo at any stage in the womb to the moment just before birth to the moment just after birth and beyond? There is increased cell division, however, the design of the embryo at any stage has not changed. Therefore the human embryo immediately at conception or fifty years out of the womb has not changed except for increased cell division. The intelligence factor is a non-issue as we are referencing the physical human embryo and we cannot determine who has a right to life based on mental development at a particular stage of existence.
Therefore with true conviction as a Christian first and a Libertarian second, I can unequivocally state that the purposeful destruction of this self-replicating human embryo whether at the moment after conception, just before birth, or any time after birth should be considered murder.
What of women who are raped or were incestually fertilized? Is this the fault of the self-perpetuating human embryo? The answer is of course no. This is not to be insensitive to women who have been treated so terribly, but this is not about the rights of the woman, but of the self-perpetuating human embryo.
The determination of abortion being a crime or not is not within the purview of the powers granted to the Federal government. I will therefore continue to fight to remove ALL unconstitutional Federal laws, but do support a law making abortion illegal at the State level.
To: MHGinTN
Excellent essay - you've certainly done your homework.
FairWitness: Infertile, but happy, father of two beautiful adopted children.
To: MHGinTN
As a pro-life advocate who gets into lots of discussions, I hear this agree to disagree more and more. It tells me my points are getting to the irrational heart of defense for the abortion slaughter. No, it tells me that reasonable people are more quickly learning that its a waste of time to use logic on people such as yourself who are too emotionally involved in an issue to discuss it rationally.
And your analogy sucks. There is no comparison between early term abortion and canibalism. One's clearly legal though ethically challenged and the other is illegal and acceptable only in stone age cultures.
110
posted on
05/13/2003 6:33:46 AM PDT
by
Dave S
To: Torie
the whole debate turns on perceptions of just when a fetus, or something in a petri dish, should obtain legal protections. And unfortunately, that really isn't very susceptible to argument. It is more about a priori assumptions. Which is why he finds that polite people will tell him "then we just have to disagree" rather than telling him "to stick it up his ass."
111
posted on
05/13/2003 6:48:24 AM PDT
by
Dave S
To: Cicero
Philosophically, rationality must rest on a basis of realism (which is to say that there is something real out there beyond our subjective opinions). Realism has pretty much vanished from our culture except among people with traditional religious views. The fact that a god exists doesnt mean that he wrote or dictated the Bible to anyone. Fact that there is a god doesnt mean that god is pro-life in the way you look at it. Face it, you are dealing with a matter of faith, not "realism" or rationality.
112
posted on
05/13/2003 6:53:23 AM PDT
by
Dave S
To: MHGinTN
I have a Korean daughter-in-law. You are wrong that a lifetime begins at birth because to Koreans it begins at conception.,P> I hope you were joking. If that was an attempt at logic, then I suggest you head back to school and demand a refund.
113
posted on
05/13/2003 6:57:01 AM PDT
by
Dave S
To: MHGinTN
Therpeutic cloning is cannibalistic, and it kills an individual human life in order to aid another, older life, to sustain that older life ... it is cannibalism. Last century, or perhaps even now, you would have been violently opposed to blood transfusion or organ transplantation for the same reason.
114
posted on
05/13/2003 6:59:38 AM PDT
by
Dave S
To: Dave S
Which is why he finds that polite people will tell him "then we just have to disagree" rather than telling him "to stick it up his ass."Looks like lot's of anger there, Dave. Let me guess - Athiest?
Sooo, you have no problem with infanticide - that's certainly a "principled" position - what DO you stand for, anyway?
115
posted on
05/13/2003 7:10:25 AM PDT
by
Psalm 73
("Gentlemen, you can't fight in here - this is a war room".)
To: Kevin Curry
It won't persuade anyone that is not already persuaded.IOW, it won't persuade Torie. So what?
Proof positive of what I expected. You folks could care less whether you change anyone's attitudes. Thats too much work. You only talk to yourselves. Makes one wonder if you really want to stop abortion or just want to feel good about making the effort (kind of like buying your way into Heaven).
116
posted on
05/13/2003 7:10:29 AM PDT
by
Dave S
To: MHGinTN; Registered
The pre-born are less human than the born?
Yes, when you strip away the rhetorical gamesmanship, the obfuscatory verbiage, that is what the arguments descend to, that is the dimness of our modern world. That is the plateau to which weve descended, from the seemingly innocent stage of artificial insemination then in vitro fertilization as merely medical assistance to natural conception. Touted as a boon to infertile couples, the in vitro fertilization process manipulated sex cells in a lab environment, conceived multiple embryos to be implanted in a womans uterus, stored excess embryos
and the process redefined the earliest age of an individuals lifetime as but one stage in a process that eventually becomes a human being. So, where was the error in reasoning first made?Whether in a dish or a human host, the embryo is an individual human being alive at the earliest age along the continuum we call a human lifetime. That fact is what was passed over so quickly when the debate over in vitro fertilization was squelched. That is the tiny error so grossly exploited to toss America down the slippery slope.
As always, thanks for the ping MHGinTN. Never give up.
Bump! and a question - Are the excess embryos always stored?
Registered, maybe it is time to take another look at that graphic you never posted. It could be updated and tweaked just a little. Maybe it was just a little ahead of its time? (CR)
To: Dave S
Five consecutive Dave S posts, and then I interrupted.
Sorry, Dave, rant on.......
118
posted on
05/13/2003 7:12:57 AM PDT
by
Psalm 73
("Gentlemen, you can't fight in here - this is a war room".)
To: Dave S
You are making the error of equating blood (a subunit of the organism) with the whole organism (as in an embryo is the organism, the whole person at the age of embryo).
... and(in vitro fertilization) the process redefined the earliest age of an individuals lifetime as but one stage in a process that eventually becomes a human being. (That new definition arbitrarily chosen claimed the 'thing' eventually becomes a human being, but the prior truth had to be ignored in order to establish the new utilitarian definition.) The individual life begins at conception. The 'clock' of lifetime begins ticking at conception and each age of the individual is but an age along a continuum that is an individual's lifetime.
119
posted on
05/13/2003 7:24:03 AM PDT
by
MHGinTN
(If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
To: Ms. AntiFeminazi
It is now the case that some excess embryos are sent to research facilities, with the signed release form from the 'owners' of the embryos, of course.
120
posted on
05/13/2003 7:25:37 AM PDT
by
MHGinTN
(If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote Life Support for others.)
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