Replies

Thank you so much for your posts and this engaging conversation! And many hugs to both of you!!!

For Lurkers, this conversation started with unspun’s post at 161 and my reply at 176. We are in disagreement over willfulness.

Dancing is a good example of submission to another’s lead where both parties retain their identity. When I speak of submission, I’m speaking to the command to abide in Him, i.e. more than a dance.

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. – John 15:4-5

Unspun, you have taken self-will to be a gift of God to be treasured and defended. You see Christ as the most willful being in the New Testament and Paul as the second most willful. In each of these instances, you treasure their ability to choose - the having of a will - above the choice they made. I disagree and treasure the choice above the being and further believe that Christ is so submitted to the Father He could no longer exist apart from Him:

Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; - Hebrews 1:3

Betty, certainly there can be no obedience without willfulness just like there can be no good without evil. Hate exists so that we can know love. Fear exists so that we can know courage. Evil exists so that we can know good. Willfulness exists so that we can obey. But none of this means that hate, fear, evil, willfulness are therefore to be treasured and should be continued in the presence of God.

We may just have an issue in the definition of terms. I do not see the mechanism of choice as the same thing as willfulness. To the contrary, I see willfulness as the polar opposite of obedience. For instance, those who are without the law are not held to the same standard because they did not sin willfully, i.e. knowingly choose to disobey. Instead, they are held accountable for willful disobedience of their conscience.

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) – Romans 2:14-15

It was willfulness that got Satan in trouble in the first place.

Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. – Eze 28:17-18

Likewise, it was willfulness whereby Adam and Eve obtain the knowledge of good and evil and therefore, the duty and consequence of choice. Jeepers, they were eternal blessed beings in God’s special paradise garden of Eden as long as they submitted to His will instead of their own.

Unspun, we are in hopeless disagreement on this one. I am not the captain of my ship and the master of my destiny. I choose not to be willful, rather I choose to submit altogether to God’s will. The joy of wallowing in His being is beyond words and I couldn’t be happier in this life.

But if you’d rather have a spiritual relationship where you retain your identity, your will, and dance – that is your choice. Each disciple had a different personality and the churches in Revelation had different personalities. I expect to see y'all in heaven also!

there can be no good without evil

hmmm.

We may just have an issue in the definition of terms. I do not see the mechanism of choice as the same thing as willfulness. To the contrary, I see willfulness as the polar opposite of obedience.

There's the source of the difficulty, then, A-G. To me (maybe unspun, too), the exercise of will = to choose, = to act. The willfulness that you oppose to obedience is, to me, the "color" of the act, which depends on its motive that becomes visible (at least to God) in the choice we make.

IOW, willfulness does not necessarily mean stubbornness or resistance -- though in common parlance, the words are often used as if they were synonyms.

It seems to me that to abide in the Lord is an act of the will -- with an important qualification attached: It cannot be done by means of self-will entirely. We cannot take "heaven by storm," but can lovingly respond to an Invitation. Christ is the willing mediator who bears us across ("I am the way, the truth, and the life.")....

Unspun, you have taken self-will to be a gift of God to be treasured and defended. You see Christ as the most willful being in the New Testament and Paul as the second most willful. In each of these instances, you treasure their ability to choose - the having of a will - above the choice they made.

Nope.

Betty, certainly there can be no obedience without willfulness just like there can be no good without evil. Hate exists so that we can know love. Fear exists so that we can know courage. Evil exists so that we can know good. Willfulness exists so that we can obey. But none of this means that hate, fear, evil, willfulness are therefore to be treasured and should be continued in the presence of God.

I must say I just don't agree with this and it does have to me, the appearance of dualism, sweet A-G. God is preternatural, apriori and does not need anti-God in order to be fully experienced as God. The same, for his qualities. The same for how he may be perceived, by one created to be in communion with him.

Satan's grave error was not willfulness (if "willfulness" means having the full faculties of one's will). His error was pride, egocentrism. He turned his will against God and toward his own nature. Silly guy.

Adam and Eve would have been better off being more wilfull in obeying God than in disobeying God, simply enough.

Unspun, we are in hopeless disagreement on this one. I am not the captain of my ship and the master of my destiny. I choose not to be willful, rather I choose to submit altogether to God’s will. The joy of wallowing in His being is beyond words and I couldn’t be happier in this life. But if you’d rather have a spiritual relationship where you retain your identity, your will, and dance – that is your choice. Each disciple had a different personality and the churches in Revelation had different personalities. I expect to see y'all in heaven also!

I want to be fully overwhelmed by God, inside and out. Intermingled even, as He would allow, in His glory. I just know what he's given me. I think you've said in a very recent post that God is not someone who gives then takes back. Dear Theophilla, I will try to explicate within the next day or two, and perhaps present some consequences. I do think that we have a disagreement on the definition of terms, but with all cherishing and respect, I believe I do not take the simple truth of "will" to mean something it wasn't intended to mean (vainglory of any kind). Please don't let me get hung up on the words "relation" and "dance;" I also very much mean communion.