For Lurkers, this conversation started with unspuns post at 161 and my reply at 176. We are in disagreement over willfulness.
Dancing is a good example of submission to anothers lead where both parties retain their identity. When I speak of submission, Im speaking to the command to abide in Him, i.e. more than a dance.
We may just have an issue in the definition of terms. I do not see the mechanism of choice as the same thing as willfulness. To the contrary, I see willfulness as the polar opposite of obedience. For instance, those who are without the law are not held to the same standard because they did not sin willfully, i.e. knowingly choose to disobey. Instead, they are held accountable for willful disobedience of their conscience.
Unspun, we are in hopeless disagreement on this one. I am not the captain of my ship and the master of my destiny. I choose not to be willful, rather I choose to submit altogether to Gods will. The joy of wallowing in His being is beyond words and I couldnt be happier in this life.
But if youd rather have a spiritual relationship where you retain your identity, your will, and dance that is your choice. Each disciple had a different personality and the churches in Revelation had different personalities. I expect to see y'all in heaven also!
hmmm.
There's the source of the difficulty, then, A-G. To me (maybe unspun, too), the exercise of will = to choose, = to act. The willfulness that you oppose to obedience is, to me, the "color" of the act, which depends on its motive that becomes visible (at least to God) in the choice we make.
IOW, willfulness does not necessarily mean stubbornness or resistance -- though in common parlance, the words are often used as if they were synonyms.
It seems to me that to abide in the Lord is an act of the will -- with an important qualification attached: It cannot be done by means of self-will entirely. We cannot take "heaven by storm," but can lovingly respond to an Invitation. Christ is the willing mediator who bears us across ("I am the way, the truth, and the life.")....
Nope.
Betty, certainly there can be no obedience without willfulness just like there can be no good without evil. Hate exists so that we can know love. Fear exists so that we can know courage. Evil exists so that we can know good. Willfulness exists so that we can obey. But none of this means that hate, fear, evil, willfulness are therefore to be treasured and should be continued in the presence of God.
I must say I just don't agree with this and it does have to me, the appearance of dualism, sweet A-G. God is preternatural, apriori and does not need anti-God in order to be fully experienced as God. The same, for his qualities. The same for how he may be perceived, by one created to be in communion with him.
Satan's grave error was not willfulness (if "willfulness" means having the full faculties of one's will). His error was pride, egocentrism. He turned his will against God and toward his own nature. Silly guy.
Adam and Eve would have been better off being more wilfull in obeying God than in disobeying God, simply enough.
Unspun, we are in hopeless disagreement on this one. I am not the captain of my ship and the master of my destiny. I choose not to be willful, rather I choose to submit altogether to Gods will. The joy of wallowing in His being is beyond words and I couldnt be happier in this life. But if youd rather have a spiritual relationship where you retain your identity, your will, and dance that is your choice. Each disciple had a different personality and the churches in Revelation had different personalities. I expect to see y'all in heaven also!
I want to be fully overwhelmed by God, inside and out. Intermingled even, as He would allow, in His glory. I just know what he's given me. I think you've said in a very recent post that God is not someone who gives then takes back. Dear Theophilla, I will try to explicate within the next day or two, and perhaps present some consequences. I do think that we have a disagreement on the definition of terms, but with all cherishing and respect, I believe I do not take the simple truth of "will" to mean something it wasn't intended to mean (vainglory of any kind). Please don't let me get hung up on the words "relation" and "dance;" I also very much mean communion.