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Extension of Objectivism discussion regarding the soul
Various | Various | Various

Posted on 05/08/2003 9:44:29 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl

On several of the various threads on the general forum which concern Objectivism, which evidently excludes God in definition of objective moral truth, the discussion has turned to the concept of the soul and more specifically, the words used in Scripture to describe the soul and how it has been understood by Jews who first received the Word and studied it for so many centuries.

I promised unspun that I would try to collect information on the various aspects and present it for Freeper discussion. Following is the first draft of that effort with a very rough organization, links and excerpts. Please click on the links for more detail as these articles are “treasure troves” of insight to the subject.

One other point, although this inquiry is directly related to the Objectivism threads and probably ought to be posted on-thread --- the size is prohibitive and thus a new thread is necessary. The result is a thread that is clearly “religious” in terms of forums, but an extension of a prior “general forum” debate. So although I am posting this to the general forum, I would fully understand the moderator choosing to move it to religion forum.

Definitions, putting it in perspective:

How did Spirituality Evolve? - from Evolution by Prof. Salomon Kapach

One difficult question which evolutionists will have to face is the question of spirituality. How will they explain the vital force of the spirit, the psyche, free will, and the soul? What adaptation could cause one's spirit to evolve? At what evolutionary stage does a soul mingle with flesh and blood? How is "mind over matter" achieved?

These questions and others have forced evolutionists to deceive themselves, contending that souls do not exist. However, since the declaration that souls don't exist (or basically that anything non- observable is non-existent) is an illogical claim (and at the very least an unsubstantiated one) some scientists who believe in the theory of evolution have taken recourse in various outlandish, even humorous, assertions.

One historic experiment endeavored to scientifically test and prove or disprove the existence of the soul. In the conclusions of the renowned zoologist who conducted the experiment, the following observation appeared: "I have disected thousands of corpses, but never once found a soul." No doubt, even a thousand vivisections would not have proven any more useful in finding a soul…

Whatever various claims may have been made by individuals to attempt to fill the void, the simple fact remains that science does not begin to pretend to have concrete answers to the many mysteries of spirituality vs. matter, regardless of the prejudices of more than a few scientists on the issue.

On the other hand, one should note that Judaism does address the issues. Midrashic and Kabbalistic sources consider the nefesh, ruach, and neshama (psyche, spirit, and soul) to be three separate entities which, although linked one to another and sharing a common origin, are nonetheless distinct one from the other. Once we cease to view the spirit and the soul as evolutionary spin-offs of the brain, and realize that they exist separately, many questions are solved.

Generally, we expect the working assumptions of scientists to be those which solve the most riddles. But it would seem now that the riddle which needs most to be solved is why so many scientists and thinkers, contrary to that rule of thumb, have adopted a working assumption which does not solve any riddles in this most critical of all areas of research, and quite the contrary, turns clarity into mystery, and significance into void

Afterlife by Ilil Arbel, Ph.D.

A human being on earth unites two parts -- a body and a soul. Each part is extremely complex in structure and consists of multiple components. While the body's structure is reasonably well understood, the structure of the soul is a mystery many tried to analyze. One Talmudic opinion divides it into three major segments:

Nefesh: the lower, animal part, related to the instincts and to the reactions of the body.

Ruach: the spirit, or the middle soul, linked to the understanding of morality and the ability to differentiate between good and evil.

Neshama: the higher soul, linked to the intellect, and separating humanity from all other life forms. It allows the person to be aware of God, and to participate in the afterlife.

According to the Zohar, which leans toward a mystical view of the universe, two additional soul parts may be developed by very few, select individuals who have the capacity of sublime levels of intuitive cognition:

Chayyah -- the part of the soul that is aware of the divine life force.

Yehidah -- the highest part of the soul, capable of achieving full union with God.

When the body dies, the soul components come apart, and each segment follows a separate road. The lower parts must undergo purification; the higher parts aim to join with God. Nefesh remains with the body for about twelve months, guarding the grave and occasionally roaming the earth for the purpose of learning. Ruach goes to Gehinnom (Purgatory), to purge itself from the sins the person committed in life, and prepare for the future life of the soul. Neshama goes to the lower Gan Eden (Paradise), Chayyah and Yehida return to Upper Gan Eden.

The Order of Realization by: David S. Devor

It can be said that any essence or entity (including a soul) consists of the substance of which it is made together with the "light" or "spirit" with which that substance is imbued and which sustains that entity's existence. It is this light or spirit, for instance, that distinguishes between a living person and a corpse. A corpse, on the other hand, has its own existence and, depending on the level of its decay, has its own quality of light. This is similarly true of the dust to which it will eventually be reduced.

Besides its technical meaning in the hierarchy of the five levels, "soul" is also the generic term for the "inner part" or "light" or "heart" or "center of gravity" of any entity. This usage is particularly appropriate since the technical term "soul" (Neshama) is the middle one or the "heart" of the hierarchy we'll now examine.

There are many types of nomenclature for the five levels or aspects of "soul" depending on the context but the main one is:

5. Yechida (unity/individuality)*
4. Chaya (eternal life)*
3. Neshama (soul)
2. Ruach (spirit)
1. Nefesh (animus)*
'Roots' Jewish Style

The human soul, or Neshama, much like the human body, is a complex entity that is subdivided into various parts. The highest part, the origin of the entire entity, is referred to by the name of the whole and is called Neshama. This part of the soul is described in Jewish tradition as being a part of God Himself. It is from this contact point of the Neshama with God that we originate spiritually, and it is through this part of the human soul that we can connect ourselves back to God. As God is a metaphysical being who can only be accessed through the realm of thoughts and ideas, the Neshama connects us back to Him by generating the thoughts and perceptions that we human beings require to be able to understand God. The vessel that traps the Divine light generated by the connection of the Neshama to God is the human mind.

The next part of the Neshama is referred to as the Ruach, or the human spirit. Our perception of the purpose of life and the basic elements of our characters are generated by this part of our souls. The Ruach takes the ideas produced in the mind by the contact of the Neshama with Divinity and applies them to formulate the conceptual structure on which we construct our lives and shapes the character of our interaction with the outside world. The vessel that receives the Divine light generated by the Ruach is the human heart.

The lowest part of the human soul is called the Nefesh. The Nefesh is the only part of the soul that is actually contained in our bodies. The Nefesh is the life force, the energy and joy of life that course through us. The vessel that traps the Divine light of the Nefesh which is provided by the contact of the Ruach with the Neshama is the blood that circulates through our bodies and generates the life force required by our limbs. The focus of its power is in the liver, the body's laboratory for processing blood.

Through the Torah one Word at a time

Kabbalistically- the soul is described as 'comprising' five levels of consciousness-experience.

The second one is referred to as RUACH. The levels are:

Nefesh-connected with physicality.,' that which animates existence in terms of life force, it acts as the source of human's capacity to think, to imagine, to dream, to contemplate." Corresponds to Olam HaAssiya-World of Doing.

RUACH-"above the primal soul, there exists in every human being, a divine soul. This is the first spark of consciousness beyond that of the zoological species, beyond even the consciousness of higher or more developed animal, and is directly connected to divine essence...It exists in each and every individual being, hidden and veiled as a spark of a higher perception, of a superior aspiration, and touches the higher level, which is Spirit." (Steinsaltz, 13 Petalled Rose , p. 57)

Corresponds to Olam HaYetzira: World of Formation Neshama: (breath, soul) -"higher awareness, defining quality of human consciousness. Zohar-"The nefesh and the ruach intertwine together, while the neshama resides in a person's character. This is an abode which cannot be discovered or located. Should a person strive toward purity in life, he or she is aided by a holy neshama. But should the person not strive for righteousness and purity of life, this person is animated only by two grades: nefesh and ruach." (Zohar:83b, quoted in God is a Verb, David Cooper. p.98)

Corresponds to Olam HaBriya: Word of Creation Chaya:(living essence)-"we gain awareness of this level only when we enter altered states. In those rare moments when we experience oceanic unity and a bright light of pure oneness, we are tapping into chaya consciousness" Cooper, p. 99)

Corresponds with Olam HaAtzilut:World of Emanation Yechida:(unity)"center point of the soul and it disapppears into the infinitude of creation...the aspect of the soul that is hardwired directly into the essence of the Divine. It is not 'with' us, but we are never apart from it...where duality dissolves"(Cooper, p.99) One 'goal' of spiritual practice is to experience the fullness of our being. As we grow spiritually we learn to integrate more of and open more to our "Divine' self. Climbing the ladder of our soul as it were.

Exploring Theological Myths - Different ways of looking at traditional beliefs.

Rabbi Jeremy Rosen – Do we have Souls?

'They called the soul by five names. Nefesh, Ruach, Neshama, Yechida, Chaya. Nefesh is blood... Ruach is the spirit that rises and descends...Neshama is the personality of a person... Chaya, even if all the limbs are dead, it still survives in the body... Yechida, all limbs are in pairs but this one it remains unique.' ...

In the Torah we will see several different words used to describe soul or spirit. The rabbis added even more words. And yet the assumptions that have been handed down can be and in practice are challenged and varied throughout both the Bible and the Talmud.

There are three main words used in the Torah for what we call 'soul'. The first is 'ruach', spirit, which appears initially as another word to describe the presence of God 'And the spirit of YHVH was hovering over the deep'. Some commentators suggest that God caused a wind to blow, like the one that divided the Red Sea for the Israelites. But most take this to mean the Shechina, the presence of God. Since God cannot be confined to any place or said to be in any one place, the rabbis devised a way of talking about the presence of God without it implying the totality of His Being. This is the Shechina, the presence, literally it means ' The Dwelling' or 'Where She is ', the place where God has chosen to have an impact. It does not have an independent reality or function in the way that ' The Holy Spirit' is often thought of. Later on, when talking about the flood, the Torah says that God will destroy ' All flesh that has the spirit of life ' using the same word, 'ruach' . So the word ruach, is applied both to God and to all living creatures as though it is a common link. There is an altogether different use of 'ruach' to describe a human passion . Firstly, when Jacob hears that his son Joseph is alive the Torah says that ' His heart ' missed a beat ' or fainted because he did not believe them ' but then when he is reassured ' his soul ( ruach) comes alive again.' There 'ruach' means his spirit as an aspect of his personality, state of mind. When describing the jealous husband who suspects his wife of infidelity the Torah says that a ' spirit of jealousy overcomes him' and the term used for this feeling is ' ruach ' . This only underlines the ambiguity of the word.

The second word for 'soul' is ' nefesh', as in ' 'And YHVH said Let the earth produce all kinds of living souls, animals, reptiles and beasts, and it was so ' . And when forbidding the Israelites to drink blood, the Torah says ' For the life of a person ( nefesh ) is in the blood ' . Nefesh is the word used almost interchangeably with 'adam' , a person, to describe a human who comes to bring a sacrifice in the book of Leviticus . Significantly, when the Torah institutes the law of fasting on Yom Kippur, the term it uses is ' Afflicting your souls' using the word nefesh . When the affliction referred to could simply be fasting, a physical act, in this context it is clearly meant to have penitentiary and therefore spiritual connotations as well.So this is a clear indication of the dual role of 'nefesh'. Throughout the Torah, the words 'nefesh' and 'ruach' seem to be used in similar situations with a heavily spiritual content, nevertheless, both are applied to ' All living beings', animal as well as human.

The third word for 'soul' and the one that in the Torah ( but not in rabbinic literature ) is only used of humans, is the word ' neshama'. 'And YHVH Elohim said formed man from the dust of the ground and He breathed into his nostrils the breath ( soul ) of life.' But this breath of life does not mean that it is automatically 'good'. And so later on in the Torah, when talking about Cannanite tribes that have to be destroyed because of their corruption and the threat they present to the newcomers, the word 'neshama' is used simply to mean all living humans. 'Do not let any breathing being ( neshama ) live.'

The Torah also uses the words ' neshama' and 'ruach' together describing the destruction of life by the flood, ' Everything that had the breath of the spirit of life ( nishmat ruach ) in its nostrils that was on dry land, died ' . So the distinction between the way the two words are used is blurred and ambiguous as to whether it applies to all life or only human life...

Symbolisms:

Five Levels of the Soul -- Inverted Seal - The Jewish Home

The five levels of the soul are called nefesh, ruach, neshama, chaya, yechida. The yechida reflects itself in the nefesh. This is revealed in the relation between Mashiach and King David. Each of the five levels of the soul correspond to a general soul root. The Arizal explains that the general soul root of the nefesh in all of Am Yisrael is King David. The ruach is the prophet, Elijah. The neshama, which is the mind, mochin d'Imma, is Moses, as stated in the Gemorah that Moses merited binah. The chaya corresponds to the ideal and primordial, blissful state of Adam and Eve before the sin. Had Adam stood that trial successfully, he would have risen to the level of yechida. Since he failed the trial he fell from all the levels of Olam ha'Atzilut. The highest level, yechida, is that of Mashiach, may he become revealed speedily in our days.

Nefesh - King David
Ruach – Elijah
Neshama – Moses
Chaya - Adam and Eve
Yechida – Mashiach

Parshas HaShavua

Man must relate to three aspects of life - his G-d, his world, and his very self.

These three dimensions are reflected in the three different parts of his soul - Nefesh, Ruach, Neshama. The Nefesh is known as 'Shituffa D'Guffa' - a partner of the body, the forces that man utilizes in his relationship to the world around him. The Neshama is the most exalted element of his being, and it remains eternally in heaven, relating to the G-d of creation. The Ruach is that part of man known as 'I' - man as he is meant to be.

These three elements are meant to be perfected, and with them the world arrives at its intended destination. It is only by refining these three aspects of his character that man becomes an appropriate vehicle to express the word of G-d.

This is the perfect 'Asher' - the world connected to G-d, approved and assured by heaven, and guaranteed to fulfill its mandate of destiny.

This concept finds expression in two seemingly disparate ideas - the prayer of 'VaYechulu' recited every Friday evening, and the Parsha of Parah Adumah, the purification from sin, death, and defilement.

Parshas Emor – Candles

Physical desires are not as physical as we think. Obviously, they are not an integral part of the body as an arm or a leg, as we see that after the spirit departs the body no longer craves food. Desire, in fact, is an expression of the life force the Creator implanted within our bodies, the Nefesh, that craves sustenance and pleasure. Even its gratification is not from the physical world itself; by eating we seperate the spiritual elements in the food from their physical shells: spirit touches spirit and dust returns to dust.

A higher part of our being is the spirit, the Ruach, which is the district of the emotions, where love, hate, anger, accomplishment and other sentiments all dwell side by side. Like a candle the Nefesh and the Ruach constantly fluctuate, craving, being depressed, sometimes both, and most often - all of them and then some. The initials of Nefesh and Ruach together even spell the word Ner, a candle.

In the Tabernacle, right outside the innermost chamber, there were candles constantly. In the morning they were extinguished and prepared for the evening when they would be lit till the next morning. Although candles constantly fluctuate, by placing them perpetually adjacent to the Holy of Holies, the Neshama of the Sanctuary, they acquired a certain degree of permanence. Miraculously the six side candles, which represented the Ruach, all faced the middle candle which represented the Nefesh.

Indeed, so essential is the Nefesh that right next to the candelabra was the table on which the Show-bread were placed. Unlike regular bread which is limited by the constraints of time and space, these loaves stayed piping fresh all week long. Although many Kohanim shared them, they all became full after eating a mere morsel, because the little bit of physicality in them was packed with satiation. It was not a physical satiation. It was the Nefesh receiving sustenance from the holy Name Lechem, which amounts to the numerical equivalent of three different punctuations of the Tetragrammaton, and is an expression of Hashem's Simple Will to Give.

Although we no longer have those holy loaves, their spiritual source still exists, and anyone who eats regular bread with the intention with which the Kohanim ate the Show-bread can tap into that holy Source of sustenance. When we light Shabbos candles and watch them flicker, we can watch our spirits flicker and dance to that Holy Light.

A more detailed look at the soul and sin:

The Soul - Part Four - To Catch a Thief

Let us selectively extract the information we learned in previous articles to orient ourselves properly towards the present discussion. The soul is made up of Naran, an acronym for Nefesh, Ruach and Neshama. Its source is in Azilut, where it is called Knesset Yisroel, which is also the Shechina, a name for the Divine Presence, the reason why the soul is called a part of God. (Responsa, Chavot Yair,210) Each of these soul parts is independently self-conscious and is subdivided into ten constituent sub-parts joined together according to the pattern of the Ten Sefirot from Keter to Malchut (see Soul #3 hyperlink). Each represents the human being in one of the four levels of reality; the human being of Azilut is called Knesset Yisroel; of Briah he is called Neshama; of Yezira he is called Ruach; and of Assiyah he is called Nefesh.

The most efficient way to tackle our present topic is to state a set of conclusions concerning reality constructed on these axioms, and only then explain how we fit into this reality as spiritual beings. Without a glimpse of the overall picture, even though at this early stage in our understanding of Kabbalah it can only be poorly understood, it will be difficult to unravel the tapestry of knowledge into individual threads.

Beginning at the conclusion

1. Nine of the ten Sefirot of the lowest part of the soul called Nefesh are detachable from their attachment to the higher part of the soul called Ruach by a process referred to in the Torah as Karet, excision.

2. There are different degrees of Karet. The most severe form has the effect of detaching nine Sefirot of the Nefesh from the Ruach, starting with Chachma and ending with Malchut, while the mildest form of Karet will detach only the bottommost level of the Nefesh, the Malchut of the Nefesh, leaving the remainder of the Sefirot of the Nefesh attached to the Ruach.

3. The levels of the Nefesh that are so detached are trapped by the forces known as Klipot who draw their life force from detached Nefoshot.

4. The highest portion of the Nefesh, the Keter of the Nefesh, can never be detached from the Ruach, because the Keter of the Nefesh is also the lowest Sefira of the Ruach, known as the Malchut of the Ruach. The parts of the soul are held together like the links of a chain. The Keter of every lower level functions as the Malchut of the level above it. The Keter of Nefesh is the Malchut of Ruach; the Keter of Ruach is the Malchut of Neshama; the Keter of Neshama is the Malchut of Knesset Yiroel.

5. Because this highest Sefira of the Nefesh cannot be detached, the parts that were severed by the Karet can always be rescued from the Kelipot and reattached to the Keter and thus to the Ruach once again through Teshuva, or repentance. Teshuva draws a bright spiritual light from the source of the Neshama in Azilut, which flows through the Neshama, passes from the Neshama through the Ruach until it enters the Malchut of Ruach, which is also the Keter of the Nefesh. The intense light that is generated in the Keter of the Nefesh cuts through the Klipot, and reattaches the severed Sefirot of the Nefesh back to itself, and as the Keter of the Nefesh is also the Malchut of the Ruach, the Karet is healed and the Nefesh and the Ruach are once again joined together.

6. Sins have the very reverse effect on the opposite extremity of the soul, the Neshama. The top nine Sefirot of the Neshama are detached from the Malchut of the Neshama, which is the Keter of the Ruach by certain types of sins. Again, the link between the Neshama and the Ruach can never be completely severed, as the top Sefira of the Ruach is also the bottom Sefira of the Neshama; the potential for healing the break is always in place.

7. As in the case of the Nefesh, the detachment of the Neshama from the Ruach is not an all or nothing proposition; not all nine levels will necessarily detach. The most severe form of detachment drives away the nine top levels of Neshama from their connection with the Ruach, from the Yesod to the Keter of the Neshama, while the mildest form of detachment will involve the separation of the level of Keter alone.

8. When the Neshama detaches from the Ruach it returns to Kneset Yisroel, its roots, the source of the Neshama in Azilut, where it is once again a portion of the Divinity itself.

9. The Ruach is the only portion of the soul that cannot detach from the rest. This prompted the Gaon of Vilna to declare that the true spiritual level of living human beings is the Ruach. The Neshama is above us and the Nefesh is beneath us. Each tugs at the Ruach in opposite directions, and it is on the level of the Ruach that we choose the overall direction of our spiritual development. But while the Ruach is unable to detach, certain sins have the effect of causing it to contract and shrink, reducing its effectiveness as a passageway that connects the Nefesh with the Neshama.

10. The healthy integrated soul is an expression of the Shechina. The Nefesh in the body connects to the Ruach; the Ruach connects to the Neshama; the Neshama connects to Knesset Yisroel, the Shechina; the spiritual light emanating from the Shechina flows all the way down to the Nefesh unimpeded and is expressed by the actions of the body as the light of God in the world.

These are the points that we shall spend the next few essays developing. There is far too much to learn to be able to include everything we need to understand all these conclusions in a single essay. Nevertheless, it is essential to focus on the entire picture as summed up in these ten points to be able to comprehend the detailed dynamics of spiritual functions.

What do souls look like? - by Rabbi Noson Weisz

To comprehend the structure of the soul, we need to begin by describing how reality itself is structured.

We live in a created universe. This means that God created the universe out of nothing. When God initiated the creation process, there was no space or time, no matter or energy [other than God's own, needless to say]. He could not fashion the universe out of pre-existing materials.

It follows that the universe is actually made of pure Divine energy, the only 'substance' that was available for God to use. This is an important point to establish and one whose implications are far from obvious at first glance…

The separation of Divine energy from its origins is described as speech. The curtain that brings about this first level of separation is known as Briah. In the world of Briah man is called a Neshama, Soul. He has already crystallized out of the composite man of Knesset Yisroel into individual form, indeed, he is even male and female, but on this level of Briah, man is male and female as a single entity; his male and female parts have not coalesced into separately identifiable elements. So God created (Vayivrah-from the word barah) Man in His image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. (Genesis 1,27)

From the level of Briah and outward man exists as an individual. As this level is just across the curtain from Azilut, the human being of Briah is aware of himself/herself as just having separated from Knesset Yisroel, from the collective human being whose energy of being was still a part of God. Man as Neshama is totally conscious of his Divine origins and cannot imagine himself either as existing without God, nor as existing separately from his male/female element. At this level man has no evil inclination or aspect and he has no freedom of choice.

Yezirah and its human inhabitant

As the Divine energy continues to flow outward from the source, a second curtain descends. Reality on the outer side of this second curtain is known as the world of Yezirah, "creative thought" in English, and man exists in this world as a Ruach, a pure spirit. It is at this level of Yezirah that he is separated into separate sexes and he makes contact with the world of his body, although the body itself does not exist in Yezirah and is located on the other side of the next curtain, where the outward flow of divine energy takes on material shape. And YHVH God, formed (Vayizer-from the word Yezirah) the man of dust from the ground, and he blew into his nostrils the soul (Nishmat-from the word Neshama) of life, and man became a living being. (Genesis 2,7) In the succeeding verses the separation of Eve from Adam is described…

Assiyah-our own world and our familiar selves

As the divine energy continues its flow outward from the source a final curtain descends. The world on the other side of this curtain is known as the world of Assiyah, meaning "completed action"; the world which we are actually conscious of inhabiting. In this world man is a Nefesh, a life force or energizing spirit, and he also has a body.

It is here that things begin to get rather more complex. The Nefesh that is an appendage of the Ruach is as spiritual as the rest of the human soul from which it stems. It is the outermost part of man's Neshama after all. Man's body on the other hand is purely material and non-spiritual. There can be no direct union between body and spirit. Entities that are diametric opposites are unable to stick to each other on a permanent bases. The union of body and pure spirit is analogous to a union between fire and water.

The shotgun marriage between two opposites

To solve this problem, man was given a second Nefesh as well to mediate between his body and the Nefesh that is the outer aspect of his Neshama. This second Nefesh is called the Nefesh Habahamith or the animate nefesh; it is what we know as the life force.

It is this animate Nefesh that is described in the Torah as being attached to the blood. Any man of the House of Israel and of the proselyte who dwells among them who will consume any blood-I shall concentrate My attention upon the soul (Nefesh) consuming the blood, and I will cut it off from its people. For the soul (Nefesh) of the flesh is in the blood and I have assigned it for you upon the Altar to provide atonement for your souls(Nefashot-Nefesh in the plural) for it is the blood that atones for the soul (Nefesh) (Vayikra 17, 10-11)

The part of the Nefesh that is attached to the Ruach is called the Nefesh Elokhit (The Divine or Godly Nefesh). This Nefesh Elokhit is wrapped into the Nefesh Habehamith which is the life force that powers the body. It is through the mediation of the envelope of the Nefesh habehamith that the Nefesh Elokhit attaches itself to the body.

This means that man is in a state of ceaseless existential conflict in the world of Assiyah. There are two Nefashot inhabiting his body in this world and they are both intelligent. The Nefesh Habehamith is still somewhat spiritual otherwise it could never mediate between the body and the Nefesh Elokhit. At the same time, as the Nefesh Habehamith is directly attached to the physical world of the body and is the life force that energizes that body, it is drawn to do a superior job and provide the body with the ultimate sensations of physical pleasure which bequeath the body with its sense of being alive. The Nefesh Elokhit which is enveloped in this Nefesh Habahamith but is purely spiritual and connected to the Ruach in Yezirah, and through the Ruach to the Neshama and above is always attempting to pull the entire organism of man away from the body towards the Neshama.

These may be on the fringe:

The Arizal on the Torah

The letters of the divine name Havayah, the five principle partzufim, the five worlds, the five "kingdoms" or levels of life in this world, the five levels of the soul, and the five aspects of the sacrifices all correspond and are summarized in the chart…

Healing the Vessel: A Conference on Jewish Healing - June 7-8, 2003

Breathing into Wholeness - Jeffrey Kessler

The breath carries the current of life throughout our bodies, feelings and thoughts, and is a natural vehicle for the integration and healing of fragmented aspects of our being. The Hebrew language points to the primacy of breath by naming the different levels of soul with breath-words: nefesh, ruach, neshama. In this workshop we will explore and expand the range of our breathing through gentle movement, chant and meditation. Our aim will be to encourage wholeness while turning and opening to the Divine Presence.



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: aynrand; crevolist; kaballah; objectivism; pilgrimmage
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To: kkindt
Thank you so much for sharing your views on all of this!

Do you have views to share on what a person's resurrected body is like v. the mortal body?

341 posted on 05/19/2003 2:51:10 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: kkindt
When one becomes aware of the reality of his own soul, and the darkness in which he resides, the awareness of his need for God and the Christ Who is His Son will lead, without exception, to rebirth, and the world and everything in it will be different and clear. Rebirth comes from that realization alone because it motivates the seeking, and those that seek, find, period.

You can witness in the Mall everyday for the rest of your life and the only ones you meet that will accept the Son will be those already on the path for it, regardless of your presence there and the words you say. The ones to whom you will minister will seek you out, or God will put them in your path.

342 posted on 05/19/2003 4:49:41 PM PDT by William Terrell (People can exist without government but government can't exist without people.)
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To: unspun
Well ... according to the Bible, Jesus will wipe away our tears when we get to heaven. That would support the idea that the "soul" which contains the mind, the will, and the emotions, goes with the spirit to heaven.

Other scriptures say we will eat (picking fruit off a tree), drink, worship, and laugh. Certainly all those things need a mind, a will and emotions.

However, the spirit is separate from the soul - the reason is Paul told us - "renew your mind" ... and Paul was talking to a group of people who were already born again - which would mean they already had a new spirit, indicating the spirit and the soul were regenerated separately.

The Holy Spirit to me is a person. I believe HE also has a mind, will and emotions. HE doesn't need a body because HE lives in the spiritual world.
343 posted on 05/19/2003 6:13:36 PM PDT by CyberAnt ( America - You Are The Greatest!!)
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To: William Terrell
The rebirth is the gift of that realization that you are a depraved sinner in need of the sacrifice Jesus Christ has made for you. Faith in Him is a gift of God. So I do agree with you that those whom God has determined will not be lost to Him will be saved and will hear the gospel. It is the teaching of Ephesians 2:8-10 and in Romans and in the words of Jesus Christ in John 6.

We don't just 'reside in darkness' - apart from the new birth we are dead to God. Rebirth doesn't come from the realization - rebirth produces that realization, don't you think? Where are the words of Scripture that say that rebirth produces the realization? I think there are many passages that teach rebirth produces that realization but can't think of any that teach that the realization produces the new birth?
344 posted on 05/20/2003 7:30:06 AM PDT by kkindt (knightforhire.com)
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To: Alamo-Girl
I don't have my own views to share about resurrected boy vs. mortal body but can share with you the views of Scripture:
"Do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit" - hence our current mortal body is to be regarded as the very dwelling place of God and treated with the utmost respect and dignity as the "place" where God Himself not only dwells on earth in us but also the "place" through which others come to meet our Lord. When we who believe in Jesus Christ eat too much and make our bodies fat or we smoke or we put drugs or too much drink in our bodies we dishonor the dwelling place of God Himself. Our mortal bodies are wonderful works of God - "behold how fearful and wonderful are all thy works" - we were formed in respect to our bodies by God in that secret place - Psalm 139.

Now our bodies are corrupted by the sin of our first parents and then by our own sin - so they will die since these bodies were not kept 100% pure by our pure thoughts and pure pure deeds - Adam and we have corrupted them and our souls will be wrenched apart from them until they are totally destroyed or transformed (those who remain will have this mortal body transformed in a twinkling of an eye).

The resurrected body is the SAME body as the mortal body except it is glorifed - i.e. made perfect for our perfected souls. That resurrected body will be like Christ's resurrected body in the sense that it is 100% pure and undefiled and will remain so forever.

Those who trouble over the scientific fact that our bodies when they are buried or burned or decayed have their molecular structure undone and then our atoms become absorbed into other things in the creation forget that God remembers exactly how He made our DNA and what we ought to be like in respect to our bodies. So when the resurrection takes place each and every atom that was us regardless of where it has gone or what has become of it - has a unique identity in God's mind that has to do with each person and it is not impossible for Him to raise up our bodies in respect to the atoms into which they have been dissolved - even if one of our atoms has become some how the part of another person's body through that person eating a plant that has absorbed a part of us - it is the historical continuity of each person in respect to body and soul that is testified to in the Scriptures because God keeps track of each and every part of us 'the hairs of our heads are numbered'. Don't ask me or anyone HOW God can do this - does He clone atoms so that an atom what once made up my body then is recycled to make up someone else's body is used to resurrect both our bodies? I don't think we need to know or think about such things - God is all powerful and all wise and knows how to cause this resurrection He has promised will happen.

Our resurrected bodies will be perfect matches for our perfected souls.
345 posted on 05/20/2003 7:41:24 AM PDT by kkindt (knightforhire.com)
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To: kkindt; unspun; betty boop; logos
Thank you so very much for your analysis! I'm pinging a few others who might be interested in this discussion.

You might find it interesting that the Kabbalists think our DNA is our “name” in a similar sense that they say the Scriptures are another “name” for God. Perhaps the language of the DNA (or such) will be used to rewrite our resurrection bodies with better stuff than the atoms we are made of now? As you said, nothing is beyond God’s ability.

It appears to me that the bodies which we are intended to have – and will have in the resurrection – are quite different from the ones we currently possess. After the resurrection, Jesus appeared in the midst of closed rooms, sometimes He concealed His identity, yet He ate and offered His body for physical examination by doubting Thomas. There was physical substance – or not – as He wished.

I conclude that our resurrection bodies will not be constrained to what we now call the physical laws - i.e. the limitations of the physical or material realm. Rather, we will be able to enter and leave as we wish, like the angels who appeared to Abraham, Lot, Daniel, Mary, etc.

Also, when Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus, the disciples knew who they were. Abraham recognized the Lord when He appeared to him. And yet, Jesus sometimes concealed Himself and we are warned that some of the strangers we meet may actually be angels.

Seems to me that our resurrection bodies will be incorruptible, immortal, angelic. Instinctively, I believe those bodies will be whole and we will appear to others in eternity as they knew us, or in the alternative they will know us – even if they had never meet us in mortal life at that age, in wholeness, etc.

Here are some Scriptures for Lurkers who may be interested in the subject:

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. – Matthew 22:29-32

Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. – Hebrews 13:2

And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, Genesis 18:1-2

And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing [them] rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night. – Genesis 19:1-2

And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. – Mark 9:4

Now when [Jesus] was risen early the first [day] of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. – Mark 16:9

After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. – Mark 16:12

And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him. – Matthew 28:9

And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: - Luke 24:4

And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem [about] threescore furlongs. And they talked together of all these things which had happened. And it came to pass, that, while they communed [together] and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. And he said unto them, What manner of communications [are] these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? - Luke 24:13-17

And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed [it], and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. – Luke 24:30-31

And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you. But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit. And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. - Luke 24:36

But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, [and looked] into the sepulchre, And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. – John 20:11-12

And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. – John 20:14

Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you. – John 20:19

And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you. – John 20:26

After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he [himself]. – John 21:1

Jesus saith unto them, Come [and] dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord. Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise. - John 21:12-13

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory? I Cor 15:52-55

And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. – Rev 21:4


346 posted on 05/20/2003 8:27:49 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
After the resurrection, Jesus appeared in the midst of closed rooms, sometimes He concealed His identity, yet He ate and offered His body for physical examination by doubting Thomas. There was physical substance – or not – as He wished.
My response: I don't think his body ever lacked the property of physical substance. It is just that He manifested properties of that body that He had the power to manifest - i.e. He could make the body's atoms move in ways that we do not understand so that the fallen corrupted eyes we have could not see or He could cause His body to move through or between other atomic masses. We just don't have enough information to say that what His risen body was like compared to His body before His death. But remember this - His body was sinless from the moment of conception. Unlike our sin corrupted bodies His was perfect from the very beginning. Remember how, before His resurrection, He walked on water and gave the power to Peter to do the same until Peter's faith failed him. So even our sin ruined bodies may by His power be enabled to do things they can't do by any inherit properties.

Our Lord is the Master of atoms and molecules, electrons and protons and other particles so small we haven't seen them yet - He is the controller of every substance. So our resurrected bodies will manifest the powers He gives to them but the very nature of our resurrected bodies will be physical - they will always be physical substance - but glorified i.e. much better than they were in their fallen state.

The fact that our Lord ate fish in His risen body indicates to us He had physical substance even in this fallen world but He had that perfect physical body we will one day have and obviously if our bodies will be like His glorified body our fallen bodies will be raised into incorruptible and much more powerful bodies. We lost the beauty and strength of our bodies when Adam sinned. Adam had a perfect body. There is no telling whether his uncorrupted body was capable of doing what our glorified bodies will be enabled to do - it might just be a wonderful restoration to bodies like Adam's uncorrupted body. We do know that in the resurrection there will be no marriage and it might be deduced this means no sexual reproduction for the command to fill the earth I am assuming will have been completed before His second coming when the Heavens and earth are made new.

You stated:
I conclude that our resurrection bodies will not be constrained to what we now call the physical laws - i.e. the limitations of the physical or material realm. Rather, we will be able to enter and leave as we wish, like the angels who appeared to Abraham, Lot, Daniel, Mary, etc.
My answer: "if you have faith as a mustard seed you will say to this mountain.." I think the perfect faith we have when our resurrected bodies and souls are reunited will enable us to do in those bodies whatever God wills us to do and we will do it. If He wishes us to manifest our bodies a billion miles from here in an instant then our bodies will be given that capability.

You wrote:
Also, when Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus, the disciples knew who they were. Abraham recognized the Lord when He appeared to him. And yet, Jesus sometimes concealed Himself and we are warned that some of the strangers we meet may actually be angels.
My answer: They "KNEW" who they were not because of what they looked like but because this knowledge was given to their minds by the Holy Spirit. What we 'see' is dependent upon the physical substance but also on the inner light the Holy Spirit generates for us. It is possible the way a resurrected body can work is that it can reflect light to the eye of the observer in various ways so that the physical substance of the risen body is different not in its actual 'appearance' but in its ability to reflect light differently to the eye of the beholder. We are not told, are we?

The DNA signature idea regarding our name is interesting but speculative because what of DNA twins? The unique name we have in the Mind of our Magnicient all knowing and wise God is one He has invented and whether it is manifested in the DNA or the fingerprints or in the way we walk (I just read that the FBI can tell who you are by how you walk!) He makes each of His children unique for His purposes. We ought not take pride in our uniqueness but we ought to give Him glory and gratitude for such an incredible ability to design each creature to be special to Him.

347 posted on 05/20/2003 1:42:59 PM PDT by kkindt (knightforhire.com)
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To: kkindt
Thank you so much for sharing your views on all of this! It has been a very interesting discussion.
348 posted on 05/20/2003 2:04:59 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; unspun
Hi, all. I wanted to thank you for your prayers concerning my recent surgery. It wasn't all that big a deal, but since it was on my left elbow it did slow down my posting for awhile. Just when I thought I could "get back into it," I somehow managed to rip out one of the staples holding the incision together, so got delayed again. [sigh]

And now, I have a meeting to attend. I don't know that I have a great deal to add to this find discussion about souls (except that I have one, of course), but I'll try to return later to see if I can come up with that "benediction" someone mentioned. :)

Again, thanks for all your prayers and kind wishes. Shalom.

349 posted on 05/23/2003 6:57:50 AM PDT by logos
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To: logos
Thank you so very much for dropping by and giving us an update on your recovery! Praise God for the good report!

I look forward to all of your posts, your wisdom and blessing. Hugs!

350 posted on 05/23/2003 8:52:38 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
(o   )   (o   )


(   o)   (   o)



(  o )   (  o  )


It is well, in your soul.

351 posted on 05/30/2003 9:25:43 AM PDT by unspun ("Do everything in love.")
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To: unspun
Indeed, it is well with my soul! Hugs!!!
352 posted on 05/30/2003 11:45:54 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
Good evening AG,

Before I head out with the tykes to visit some close folks, I have something I wanted to pose to you. Today, while doing a little thinking regarding the Holy Day, I wondered if some of the foundation of the Blessed Trinity concept could be based on Nefesh, Neshama and Rhuarc? I am sorry for bringing this thread back but my meditations reminded me of it. TCN and a nice to see you again .

353 posted on 10/31/2003 3:46:43 PM PST by Kudsman
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To: Kudsman
Thank you so very much for sharing your thoughts on this!

I remember reading an article long ago that spoke of certain numbers being used throughout Scriptures in a consistent context. As I recall, the number seven always seemed to be associated with a completion, the number four with man, the number ten with a test and the number three with holiness. But I doubt any mortal actually planned on it working out that way.

354 posted on 10/31/2003 7:44:03 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
But I doubt any mortal actually planned on it working out that way.

I share that doubt. More so, I think I'm actually thankful it is so.

355 posted on 10/31/2003 8:24:31 PM PST by Kudsman
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To: Kudsman
Same here! Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts!
356 posted on 10/31/2003 8:29:49 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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