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"Unlike the American troops, we look the Iraqis in the eye"
The Daily Telegraph U.K. ^ | 4-05-03 | Not attributed

Posted on 05/04/2003 3:04:58 PM PDT by WaterDragon

He counts his unit's kills meticulously, each one a tick in black pen on his khaki helmet which is, by now, bleached by the sun and battered from battle. Perched in the turret of his tank, just behind the barrel that is hand-painted with intimidating war cries such as "kill 'em all" or "I'm a motherf***ing warrior", he talks only to those Iraqis with the temerity to approach: he feels vulnerable without a 60-ton Abrams girding his loins. It is impossible to read anything in his eyes because they are always obscured by mirrored sunglasses.

Only in the safety of his unit's headquarters, behind barbed wire and protected by heavy weaponry, does the American marine take off his body armour and helmet. On the streets of Baghdad, out on patrol, he is wary and ill at ease.

Friendly approach: an Irish Guard patrols the streets of Basra Every Iraqi is a potential troublemaker, a possible target. If one fails to stop at his checkpoint, his response will be to open fire. If more than 50 gather to chant anti-American slogans, he will likely flood the street with soldiers. If he so much as suspects that the crowd has weapons he may well consider a full-scale counter-attack.

Still in full battle dress, though the war is over, he is awesome to behold. His President insists that he was never a member of an invading force, that he was a liberator and is now a peacekeeper. Yet much of the time he is loathed, despised and spat upon by those Iraqis for whose freedom he fought. He and his comrades are among the most hated men in the Iraqi capital.

The manner in which the American forces stormed their way to Baghdad may indeed have been awesome. They fought the war with verve, with valour and with steely determination. How they are holding the peace, however, makes a woeful contrast.

British troops, by comparison, are welcomed in southern Iraq with cries of "We love you Britannia, welcome British." In the south, the British not only won the trust of the locals during the war and used it effectively to gather vital intelligence, they kept it in the aftermath. The Americans, hampered by much stricter rules of engagement and with little experience of peacekeeping, are swiftly losing the battle for hearts and minds.

On the streets of Basra, Safwan and Az Zubayr in southern Iraq, British soldiers, with years of experience of dealing with civilian populations in war zones such as Northern Ireland and of peacekeeping in the Balkans and Sierra Leone, are treated as saviours. They have abandoned their helmets in favour of their more people-friendly berets, have taken off their body armour and mingle with the locals. They have helped to set up a local police force and a council to get the city's infrastructure running smoothly.

"Have you met my buddy Ahmed?" says Sergeant Euan Andrews, from the 7th Parachute Regiment of the Royal Horse Artillery, as he swings an arm around an Iraqi by his side outside the freshly painted Basra police station.

Ahmed, beaming in a baseball cap emblazoned with the words "City of Basra police" in Arabic and holding a truncheon, punches his new friend in playful camaraderie. "A month ago we were shooting at each other," says Euan, "now we are on the same side."

As Ahmed, chest swelling with pride, steps out to deal with the next car check by himself, Euan gives him an encouraging nod. "They're all getting there," he says. "It will take time. There is still a lot of: 'He is my cousin, my friend, he is ok.' We have had to explain that police must be impartial. But slowly we are getting there."

That afternoon the soldiers are playing football against the locals and in the evening they have volunteered to repaint the local school. The Iraqis loiter to chat as they pass the station, shaking soldiers by the hand and bringing them home-cooked meals. "Our methods of dealing with the locals are very, very different from that of the Yanks," one officer says over a cup of local coffee. ("Awful," he says, "but they like it when we drink it.")

"Unlike the Americans we have taken off our helmets and sunglasses and we look the locals in the eye. If we see one vehicle heading at speed towards a checkpoint we let it through. It is only one vehicle. We call our method "raid and aid" - don't ask me what we call the American way."

In Basra, raid and aid worked. For two weeks the 7th Armoured Brigade waited at the bridge before entering the city. During that time it built up its relationship with those Iraqis brave enough to provide intelligence about the Fedayeen - Saddam's loyalist fighters - who had held the city to ransom.

The result was that when the British did enter, they knew where to go, who to go after and who to trust. For them the rules of engagement changed as warfare became peacekeeping. Now, they no longer automatically return fire. They wait. Often Iraqi gunfire is a sign of celebration at the return of electricity or running water. They know it is not necessarily attacking fire.

The Americans are, admittedly, bound by much less flexible rules. Their Force Protection Doctrine decrees that all soldiers must wear helmets and body armour in a war zone at all times and that gun fire must be met with response. They also have little experience in the peacekeeping arena, and their experience of urban warfare in the battle for Hue during the Vietnam war and more recently in Somalia has left them jumpy.

The British have learned in the past 30 years that good information on the enemy was their best protection and that putting soldiers at risk to get it was justified; jungle ambushes in Vietnam made the Americans obsessed with "force protection".

Since the killing of four American soldiers by an Iraqi suicide bomber 10 days into the conflict, they have become even more wary of locals.

Last week, Americans killed 15 people - among them two young boys - at Fallujah, an impoverished Shia area 30 miles west of Baghdad - when locals became angry at their occupation of the local school. Though the US troops say they fired in self-defence - and may well have done so - television footage of bleeding Iraqis, clearly unarmed, lying on the roads, have shocked Western viewers.

In Baghdad, where the Americans rarely leave their compounds, lawlessness is widespread. On Friday, when locals realised that Saddam's sister owned a lavish home in Al Jadria in the west of the city, they stormed the house. Pianos, furniture and paintings were dragged away by a mob of looters. When US soldiers arrived they stopped only long enough to warn journalists not to remove anything or they would be arrested, then left the mob rampaging through the house. "I'm not going near that lot," one marine said. "I don't feel safe anywhere near them, unless I am behind a whopping big tank."

In the more affluent areas of Al Mansour and Al Kaarada, local families have been forced to build barricades to keep out thieves as the American soldiers refuse to patrol.

In the Shia ghettos of Saddam City and Khadamia, where the Americans are reluctant to go even in tanks, the local imams have taken matters in hand. "Imams have set up local security stations in the hospitals," says Yousef al Alwani. "Guns that have been looted, many from Saddam's palace, are brought to the mosques and from there the imams take them to the hospital and arm the local militia who are now policing us. The Americans don't protect us and they don't help us. What else are they doing but occupying us?"

Cultural background, say military analysts, explains much of the British success in southern Iraq. "Britain and other European nations have imperial traditions," says Stuart Crawford, a retired lieutenant colonel in the 4th Royal Tank Regiment. "As a result, British troops have been inculcated with the ethos and tradition of colonial policing, where small numbers of men would have close contact on a daily basis with local populations. But America is a young country with no colonial past."

In some respects it is a paradox that Britain, which once ruled an empire, should have a more flexible and sensitive army than America.

At the end of the 19th century, the howitzer and the Maxim gun were the equivalent of the cruise missile and the tankbuster. To maintain control yet allow and encourage people to live in their traditional ways, they became accustomed to understanding and respecting local culture and customs. It is a lesson that the American army has yet, it seems, to learn.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; United Kingdom; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: allies; american; antiamerican; boorishness; british; drivel; iraqifreedom; mediabias; order; totalbs; troops
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To: may18
"Just one small comment basra did actually fall just before bagdhad. (Official dates are the 7th and 9th respectively"

I don't doubt your official dates, but I was watching Fox News very early on Saturday Morning when their embedded reporter was driving in the armored column that drove through Baghdad, blasting anything and everything that threatened them. For all intents and purposes, everyone knew the jig was up from that point on. That was April 5th.
461 posted on 05/05/2003 4:15:31 PM PDT by Pukka Puck
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To: MadIvan
Same old same old from Ivan.

"I posted articles regarding the Royal Marines raiding Basra, artillery fights in Basra, snatch and grab of Ba'ath leaders, and so on. Men showing far more bravery than you can possibly ever know."

Yes, they raided, they snatched, they diddled around on the outskirts of Basra for two weeks. We agree this, it is only semantics you want to quibble over.

Their is no doubt that the British troops showed great bravery. I have never doubted or questioned their bravery, so your Johnny one note insistence that I have questioned the bravery of the British troops is more of your trademark intellectual dishonesty.

"If you want to insult Britain, go right ahead. Insult the lads too while you're at it."

There you go again. I did not insult Britain or the lads, despite your frequent assertions to the contrary. I have repeatedly posted that the British troops did everything that they were asked to do and did it very well. Somehow you never acknowledge this fact. I have also repeatedly posted that the British did what the AMERICAN commanders asked them to do. For whatever reason, the AMERICAN commanders wanted the British troops to stay out of Basra and only conduct raids and such, while the American troops did the heavy lifting. The logical reason that the AMERICAN commanders asked the British troops to avoid heavy combat was that the British public was strongly against the war, while the American public supported the war.

If the British had taken heavy casualties in an unpopular war, it would have been very bad for American policy makers and Bush in particular.

Big deal, your friends support you in your error. That says more about your friends than the quality of your argument.

Thanks for letting me have the last word. That is white of you.




462 posted on 05/05/2003 4:27:06 PM PDT by Pukka Puck
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To: Pukka Puck
well the column didnt stay in bagdhad, it went in and sharply turned before leaving again. The UK 1st armoured division and the black watch were in the centre of basra on the 2nd day after surrounding it, they were ordered to withdraw. Personally for 25k soldiers on the ground, including engineers etc i cant see how such a small force could have possibly achieved more objectives than it did.

As mentioned, the uk is not happy about casualties, but it has served throughout our history to make people more determined to see it through to the end.The largest initial casualties were to the UK when the sea knight crashed. It had no effect on public opinion.
If centcom had been trying to keep the uk out of "fierce fighting" the initial risky operation (airborne insertion and amhipious assault are high risk) would have been assigned to navy seals.
IMHO the jobs were assigned where the forces were most suitable. Amphibious assaults are a royal speciality, the US had far superior logistics, and basra was not considered a strategic objective for the first week of the war.
So with this in mind, NOT fear of casualties on the part of the uk the objectives were assigned.

Hope that all makes sense im feeding my daughter at the same time
463 posted on 05/05/2003 4:41:04 PM PDT by may18
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To: Pukka Puck; WaterDragon; MadIvan
{Time out.}

Tsk, tsk! Come now, we aren't going to be missish, are we?

Although I've been called many things before, "intellectual lightweight," among those who know me, isn't one of them. But I make no claim to brilliance. I'll leave that to you heavyweights. I would like to ask that you dispense with the ad hominem if we should meet again.

I had no intention of stumbling into a firefight between you guys and MadIvan. My only point was this: I'm darned glad for everything the British forces and Blair did to support our cause in Iraq. Whether that should have been more, I'm not in a position to say. I believe they did what they could, given the mood of the British public.

Glad they joined us, grateful for their support, would not appreciate seeing FReepers discount what they did. That's it.

Gentlemen, you may now resume flaming.

464 posted on 05/05/2003 5:05:30 PM PDT by Cordova Belle ("America is great because she is good. When America ceases to be good, she will cease to be great.")
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To: Pukka Puck
Pukey Puke - I'm a conservative, although an "idiot" and a "stupid and unrealistic" one, as per your kind comments. Of course, I find your wisdom and erudition to be truly admirable. Your insults have convinced me I'm wrong. Who knew that "Sgt. Rock" comic books were in fact documentaries?
465 posted on 05/05/2003 5:17:03 PM PDT by Seydlitz
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To: Cordova Belle
My only point was this: I'm darned glad for everything the British forces and Blair did to support our cause in Iraq. Whether that should have been more, I'm not in a position to say. I believe they did what they could, given the mood of the British public. Glad they joined us, grateful for their support, would not appreciate seeing FReepers discount what they did. That's it.

Not one word of this has ever been in dispute in this thread. Wholeheartedly agree, and have said so repeatedly. As for "flaming", is that what this thread is? I thought it was a discussion. I've called no one names, never once slammed the British army, never insulted the British public. The only entity that I attack is the U.K. Telegram for slyly posting snide articles about the American soldiers and posting another article calling Bush and Blair liars.

And I asked why a conservative British newspaper would do such a thing.

466 posted on 05/05/2003 5:19:13 PM PDT by WaterDragon (Only America has the moral authority and the resolve to lead the world in the 21st Century.)
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To: Seydlitz
I am glad I have helped you to see the light.
467 posted on 05/05/2003 5:27:30 PM PDT by Pukka Puck
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To: Cordova Belle
cordova wrt to your question regarding what the uk could say

45k, 1 armoured division, 2 elite brigades and naval vessels such as mine sweepers is about the max we could support long term in the field. Not a lot really compared to the US
But with European sea lift and amphibious abilities its actually more than the rest of europe together could have deployed. Most of europe have no projecion abilities, france is 2nd, but they have v.poor sealift and no real heavy airlift abilities.

hehe some useless facts for ya ;)

I
468 posted on 05/05/2003 5:28:26 PM PDT by may18
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To: may18
It all makes perfect sense, just like all your other posts. And to think that you can be so logical and persuasive while feeding your daughter at the same time.
469 posted on 05/05/2003 5:29:51 PM PDT by Pukka Puck
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To: WaterDragon
no idea waterdragon, maybee a writer against the war.

Ive read so much anti british crap in our papers and it wound me up. So i do understand this article is annoying for us readers

however, i dont think it should be held up as an example of uk opinion. Otherise brits would really believe that our royal marines were incompetant (as per a guardian article)
470 posted on 05/05/2003 5:31:20 PM PDT by may18
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To: may18
That's the nub of it, may18. If a conservative newspaper here printed articles insulting British troops, you'd have seen very angry American posters at FR....and that newspaper would be crawling on its knees begging forgiveness.

So, why does a conservative newspaper in Britain, the biggest one, think it can get away with this? Don't people complain?

You see, here at FR, it seems that some Brits think those articles are just fine. In fact, Ivan posted one himself and thought it was ridiculous that Americans were insulted.

That is what I do not understand.
471 posted on 05/05/2003 5:45:25 PM PDT by WaterDragon (Only America has the moral authority and the resolve to lead the world in the 21st Century.)
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To: WaterDragon
aaah didnt you know?

the british never complain

dont ask me why, its a british thing

good example, if a typical british couple went for a meal.

and it was substandard, theres a fair chance they wuld still say it was "fine" when asked.

From what ive read of the US, the same wouldnt happen there?

The only time the bbc recieved a LOT of complaints for example. Was when they assembled a hostile audience for the american ambassador.

The complaints where that the bbc was not representing uk opinion.They were forced to make an official apology.

For the record, i have mailed the telegraph regarding their article.

472 posted on 05/05/2003 5:57:20 PM PDT by may18
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To: may18
Good for you! I emailed them.

Perhaps it would be smarter of British posters at FR not to post nasty articles from the Telegraph when they appear, and then mock Americans for being upset at the insults..

Actually, most Americans have no difficulty complaining about most anything that looks unfair to us. We would savage a conservative OR liberal newspaper here if one were to even hint at an insult to British soldiers.
473 posted on 05/05/2003 6:06:35 PM PDT by WaterDragon (Only America has the moral authority and the resolve to lead the world in the 21st Century.)
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To: WaterDragon
Wow, I'm sure glad George Bush decided to jump aboard when
Tony Blair decided to wage war in Iraq.
474 posted on 05/05/2003 6:16:22 PM PDT by willyboyishere
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To: WaterDragon
uhm im a bit confused, i dont think ivan posted it?
475 posted on 05/05/2003 6:19:55 PM PDT by may18
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To: may18
The thread is titled Fruit dumplings play crucial role

Here's a bit of it:

The three US special forces rangers dismounted from their vehicle wearing identical shades and un-reassuring smiles. "Hello, we're to offer you our services," said one, as he signalled to one of his men to provide covering fire from a heavy machinegun on the roof of his jeep.

"We're trilingual arms and explosives experts with full air support and medical assistance at your disposal, sir. We've come to debrief the local population to provide you with useful intelligence."

"Right you are," said the officer from A squadron, Queen's Dragoon Guards outside Gul Ashab. The village is under British control following a sweeping manoeuvre on Monday which took the squadron to the outskirts of Basra.

"We've got some special techniques to motivate them into helping you," said the special forces man.

"You know what?" said the British officer, "I don't think that will be strictly necessary."

And MadIvan's response when a poster objected to the insulting tone of the article:

WellsFargo94 Does the Daily Telegraph have it in for the U.S. military? Didn't seem to be a very positive discription of our guys

MadIvan: Not at all. The Telegraph is the most conservative newspaper in the country, if not the world. It reported Clinton's crimes before anyone else did.

Regards, Ivan

[post #5] There you go, may18. Check out the thread for yourself.

476 posted on 05/05/2003 6:53:56 PM PDT by WaterDragon (Only America has the moral authority and the resolve to lead the world in the 21st Century.)
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To: Pukka Puck
I'm not sure if you're referring to me in saying the British troops didn't pull their weight. I believe they did everything they were asked to do. I believe they followed orders. I believe they were, and are, part of the larger plan. No matter if they "could" have done more, that was/is up to the commanders on the ground in the theater of operations. Not being privey to the grand plan, I see no concrete reasons to doubt or second guess the performance of British troops in Iraq. The objective has been achieved. Future analysis will reveal any shortcomings.
477 posted on 05/05/2003 9:39:50 PM PDT by Thumper1960
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To: may18
" Otherise brits would really believe that our royal marines were incompetant "

Well now.....if G. Gordon Liddy sez the RM are awesome fighting men, who am I to disagree? ;-)

Cheers!

478 posted on 05/05/2003 9:48:36 PM PDT by Thumper1960
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To: WaterDragon
The only entity that I attack is the U.K. Telegram

The UK Telegram? Never heard of it.

479 posted on 05/06/2003 1:01:17 AM PDT by Happygal
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To: WaterDragon; may18
The 'fruit dumplings' article was about winning the war over 'hearts and minds'. It was quite an engaging article, read through. And written for a British audience. I certainly didn't read anything derogatory into it.

It seems perhaps that some of the FR posters are the ones a little 'tightly wound'. :-)

480 posted on 05/06/2003 1:03:58 AM PDT by Happygal
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