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"Unlike the American troops, we look the Iraqis in the eye"
The Daily Telegraph U.K. ^ | 4-05-03 | Not attributed

Posted on 05/04/2003 3:04:58 PM PDT by WaterDragon

He counts his unit's kills meticulously, each one a tick in black pen on his khaki helmet which is, by now, bleached by the sun and battered from battle. Perched in the turret of his tank, just behind the barrel that is hand-painted with intimidating war cries such as "kill 'em all" or "I'm a motherf***ing warrior", he talks only to those Iraqis with the temerity to approach: he feels vulnerable without a 60-ton Abrams girding his loins. It is impossible to read anything in his eyes because they are always obscured by mirrored sunglasses.

Only in the safety of his unit's headquarters, behind barbed wire and protected by heavy weaponry, does the American marine take off his body armour and helmet. On the streets of Baghdad, out on patrol, he is wary and ill at ease.

Friendly approach: an Irish Guard patrols the streets of Basra Every Iraqi is a potential troublemaker, a possible target. If one fails to stop at his checkpoint, his response will be to open fire. If more than 50 gather to chant anti-American slogans, he will likely flood the street with soldiers. If he so much as suspects that the crowd has weapons he may well consider a full-scale counter-attack.

Still in full battle dress, though the war is over, he is awesome to behold. His President insists that he was never a member of an invading force, that he was a liberator and is now a peacekeeper. Yet much of the time he is loathed, despised and spat upon by those Iraqis for whose freedom he fought. He and his comrades are among the most hated men in the Iraqi capital.

The manner in which the American forces stormed their way to Baghdad may indeed have been awesome. They fought the war with verve, with valour and with steely determination. How they are holding the peace, however, makes a woeful contrast.

British troops, by comparison, are welcomed in southern Iraq with cries of "We love you Britannia, welcome British." In the south, the British not only won the trust of the locals during the war and used it effectively to gather vital intelligence, they kept it in the aftermath. The Americans, hampered by much stricter rules of engagement and with little experience of peacekeeping, are swiftly losing the battle for hearts and minds.

On the streets of Basra, Safwan and Az Zubayr in southern Iraq, British soldiers, with years of experience of dealing with civilian populations in war zones such as Northern Ireland and of peacekeeping in the Balkans and Sierra Leone, are treated as saviours. They have abandoned their helmets in favour of their more people-friendly berets, have taken off their body armour and mingle with the locals. They have helped to set up a local police force and a council to get the city's infrastructure running smoothly.

"Have you met my buddy Ahmed?" says Sergeant Euan Andrews, from the 7th Parachute Regiment of the Royal Horse Artillery, as he swings an arm around an Iraqi by his side outside the freshly painted Basra police station.

Ahmed, beaming in a baseball cap emblazoned with the words "City of Basra police" in Arabic and holding a truncheon, punches his new friend in playful camaraderie. "A month ago we were shooting at each other," says Euan, "now we are on the same side."

As Ahmed, chest swelling with pride, steps out to deal with the next car check by himself, Euan gives him an encouraging nod. "They're all getting there," he says. "It will take time. There is still a lot of: 'He is my cousin, my friend, he is ok.' We have had to explain that police must be impartial. But slowly we are getting there."

That afternoon the soldiers are playing football against the locals and in the evening they have volunteered to repaint the local school. The Iraqis loiter to chat as they pass the station, shaking soldiers by the hand and bringing them home-cooked meals. "Our methods of dealing with the locals are very, very different from that of the Yanks," one officer says over a cup of local coffee. ("Awful," he says, "but they like it when we drink it.")

"Unlike the Americans we have taken off our helmets and sunglasses and we look the locals in the eye. If we see one vehicle heading at speed towards a checkpoint we let it through. It is only one vehicle. We call our method "raid and aid" - don't ask me what we call the American way."

In Basra, raid and aid worked. For two weeks the 7th Armoured Brigade waited at the bridge before entering the city. During that time it built up its relationship with those Iraqis brave enough to provide intelligence about the Fedayeen - Saddam's loyalist fighters - who had held the city to ransom.

The result was that when the British did enter, they knew where to go, who to go after and who to trust. For them the rules of engagement changed as warfare became peacekeeping. Now, they no longer automatically return fire. They wait. Often Iraqi gunfire is a sign of celebration at the return of electricity or running water. They know it is not necessarily attacking fire.

The Americans are, admittedly, bound by much less flexible rules. Their Force Protection Doctrine decrees that all soldiers must wear helmets and body armour in a war zone at all times and that gun fire must be met with response. They also have little experience in the peacekeeping arena, and their experience of urban warfare in the battle for Hue during the Vietnam war and more recently in Somalia has left them jumpy.

The British have learned in the past 30 years that good information on the enemy was their best protection and that putting soldiers at risk to get it was justified; jungle ambushes in Vietnam made the Americans obsessed with "force protection".

Since the killing of four American soldiers by an Iraqi suicide bomber 10 days into the conflict, they have become even more wary of locals.

Last week, Americans killed 15 people - among them two young boys - at Fallujah, an impoverished Shia area 30 miles west of Baghdad - when locals became angry at their occupation of the local school. Though the US troops say they fired in self-defence - and may well have done so - television footage of bleeding Iraqis, clearly unarmed, lying on the roads, have shocked Western viewers.

In Baghdad, where the Americans rarely leave their compounds, lawlessness is widespread. On Friday, when locals realised that Saddam's sister owned a lavish home in Al Jadria in the west of the city, they stormed the house. Pianos, furniture and paintings were dragged away by a mob of looters. When US soldiers arrived they stopped only long enough to warn journalists not to remove anything or they would be arrested, then left the mob rampaging through the house. "I'm not going near that lot," one marine said. "I don't feel safe anywhere near them, unless I am behind a whopping big tank."

In the more affluent areas of Al Mansour and Al Kaarada, local families have been forced to build barricades to keep out thieves as the American soldiers refuse to patrol.

In the Shia ghettos of Saddam City and Khadamia, where the Americans are reluctant to go even in tanks, the local imams have taken matters in hand. "Imams have set up local security stations in the hospitals," says Yousef al Alwani. "Guns that have been looted, many from Saddam's palace, are brought to the mosques and from there the imams take them to the hospital and arm the local militia who are now policing us. The Americans don't protect us and they don't help us. What else are they doing but occupying us?"

Cultural background, say military analysts, explains much of the British success in southern Iraq. "Britain and other European nations have imperial traditions," says Stuart Crawford, a retired lieutenant colonel in the 4th Royal Tank Regiment. "As a result, British troops have been inculcated with the ethos and tradition of colonial policing, where small numbers of men would have close contact on a daily basis with local populations. But America is a young country with no colonial past."

In some respects it is a paradox that Britain, which once ruled an empire, should have a more flexible and sensitive army than America.

At the end of the 19th century, the howitzer and the Maxim gun were the equivalent of the cruise missile and the tankbuster. To maintain control yet allow and encourage people to live in their traditional ways, they became accustomed to understanding and respecting local culture and customs. It is a lesson that the American army has yet, it seems, to learn.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; United Kingdom; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: allies; american; antiamerican; boorishness; british; drivel; iraqifreedom; mediabias; order; totalbs; troops
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To: Pukka Puck
Basra is in the heart of Shia country, yet no one shoots at the Brits. You also advised the Telegraph to re-write their piece to refer to people forced "to shoot at the Marines in an attempt to force the Marines to fire back..." in Fallujah. However, last I checked, the 82nd Airborne is part of the Army, not the USMC. But hey, I'm just an idiot.
441 posted on 05/05/2003 1:32:47 PM PDT by Seydlitz
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To: miss marmelstein
LOL!
442 posted on 05/05/2003 1:33:23 PM PDT by WaterDragon (Only America has the moral authority and the resolve to lead the world in the 21st Century.)
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To: Pukka Puck
Obviously, some people are harder to insult than others. I know a women who loves her husband who regularly knocks her teeth down her throat, but....also often brings her candy and flowers to prove his love for her.

Some people you can't help.
443 posted on 05/05/2003 1:37:20 PM PDT by WaterDragon (Only America has the moral authority and the resolve to lead the world in the 21st Century.)
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To: WaterDragon
My favorite photo: the soldier in a truck holding a tiny girl munching on a Fig Newton.
444 posted on 05/05/2003 1:48:25 PM PDT by miss marmelstein
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To: Seydlitz; WaterDragon
"Basra is in the heart of Shia country, yet no one shoots at the Brits."

No shit, Sherlock! Since you are obviously ignorant, let me clue you in. Saddam and his henchmen were Sunni. They oppressed the Shiites and did not allow them to become members of the Baath Party, ergo, the Shia hated Saddam and welcomed the Brits as liberators from Saddam. The Kurds in the north, likewise oppressed by Saddam and the Baath Party, welcomed American troops and the Kurds are not shooting at Americans, either.

In the former Baath Party strongholds, like Tikrit and Fallujah, support for Saddam was much higher, Baath Party membership was much higher, ergo, much more resentment of American troops, including gunfire.

Now please stop being so stupid.
445 posted on 05/05/2003 1:54:37 PM PDT by Pukka Puck
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To: Seydlitz; WaterDragon
You are both an idiot and a nitpicker. These are not mutually exclusive.

If you would have read a little closer, I was quoting from another poster at to the rewrite. The bigger point was that the Baath Party Iraqis were to blame for the shooting, not American troops, whether those troops are Marines or 82nd Airborne.

If you have been following the war news as closely as you seem to have been, then you know full well that many Iraqi soldiers ditched their uniforms and put on civilian clothes. Among the fifteen killed were most likely deserting soldiers or at least they would be among those who started shooting at our troops in the hopes of provoking an incident for the press to spout and useful idiots like you to parrot.
446 posted on 05/05/2003 2:00:44 PM PDT by Pukka Puck
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To: WaterDragon
"I'm not going near that lot," one marine said. "I don't feel safe anywhere near them, unless I am behind a whopping big tank."

I don't know a single American who uses the term, "that lot." That's British English and makes me doubt the veracity and tone of the entire piece.

447 posted on 05/05/2003 2:01:45 PM PDT by John Jorsett
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To: Pukka Puck
So, Shia militants backed by Iranian provacateurs don't dare shoot at Brits, but Sunni Baathists with no outside support shoot at Americans. Fair enough.
448 posted on 05/05/2003 2:04:18 PM PDT by Seydlitz
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To: John Jorsett
Not to mention that an American Marine would ever say to a damn limey reporter, "I don't feel safe anywhere near them".

Sure Mr. Reporter, we all know that American Marines are all cowards.

The entire article is simply a snide smear.
449 posted on 05/05/2003 2:09:28 PM PDT by Pukka Puck
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To: Seydlitz
So if Shia militants, Shia militants backed by Iranian provacateurs haven't shot at the Brits, now have they? And you attribute this fact to the Brits being such friendly blokes that even with Iranian provocateurs goading them into shooting the British, the local Shia militants just can't bring themselves to shooting at a Brit who isn't wearing a helmet? Like I said, you are an idiot.


And yes, Sunni Baathists have shot at Americans. Are you so stupid as to think that if the British were to be patrolling in the Baathist areas that no British troops would be shot at?

Like I wrote, you are willfully ignorant. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. You refuse to see an insult where there is an obvious insult. Are you a conservative or a liberal, because you sure do think like a liberal, i.e., stupid and unrealistic?
450 posted on 05/05/2003 2:17:31 PM PDT by Pukka Puck
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To: miss marmelstein
My favorite photo: the soldier in a truck holding a tiny girl munching on a Fig Newton.

There were tons of photos like that one. I adored it, too.

451 posted on 05/05/2003 2:19:26 PM PDT by WaterDragon (Only America has the moral authority and the resolve to lead the world in the 21st Century.)
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To: John Jorsett
I don't know a single American who uses the term, "that lot." That's British English and makes me doubt the veracity and tone of the entire piece

Lazy reporting or outright fabrication, why is a conservative newspaper, the Telegraph, in Britain giving space to this trash?

452 posted on 05/05/2003 2:21:30 PM PDT by WaterDragon (Only America has the moral authority and the resolve to lead the world in the 21st Century.)
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To: Pukka Puck
First off, basra is not as rosy as people seem to think.

There is progress, but the image that everyone there loves them is false. Some are grateful, others are resentfull.

WRT to a couple of comments ive read

1) Wearing of berets, removal of armor.
No it isnt going to make everyone love you, its a tactic to appear less threatening. If the usa doesnt do that, shrug just different tactics no way to know which is best

2) The argument that of the telegraph posts this, then it must reflect uk opinion. Here i beg to differ. The bbc throughout the whole war were incredibly negative regarding uk force progress. Many were angry yet still they portrayed it. Ive read articles on the web from uk papers deriding our men on the ground. Again most brits reading it were outraged. Why does the paper print it? scandal sells papers

3) The comment that higher casualties would have swayed opinion against war.
Well i think thts a misguess of uk personality.
I lived through the falklands, when the sheffield was sunk, support for the war increased. In fact a large chunk of the public advocated taking the falklands and using it as a base for taking out galtieri. Despite the fact 250 uk lives were lost.

Anyway what im interested in, do people think the uk and us stles of peacekeeping differ?. Do tey think one style is more effective?. Or is it as i think impossible to jusdge, as different cities present different problems?
453 posted on 05/05/2003 2:26:49 PM PDT by may18
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To: may18
"Or is it as i think impossible to judge, as different cities present different problems?"

I agree with you that it is impossible to judge, but that I would imagine that the edge goes to the British. A British paper could have made this point, without deriding the Americans in the process and if they had, it would have had a better chance of being accepted by Americans.
454 posted on 05/05/2003 2:35:41 PM PDT by Pukka Puck
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To: Pukka Puck
Don't ping me to your posts. Quite frankly, there is little point in arguing with you, since facts don't matter - only your anti-British bias (for whatever reason) does.

I am not going to leave this site, as it has become clear to me that you are indeed if not alone, certainly in a distinct minority. And as such, should just be simply ignored.

Ivan

455 posted on 05/05/2003 2:37:41 PM PDT by MadIvan
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To: Pukka Puck
That fact that some have mentioned that the lads sat outside Basra, doing very little for two weeks, is not bashing the "lads", it is simply a very true fact.

I pinged you to a number of articles that proved you to the contrary that they were doing "little". It's not my problem that you're too barmy to notice. As such, there is no further point in discussing the matter with you - your sole purpose is to spew propaganda, not facts.

Ivan

456 posted on 05/05/2003 2:39:30 PM PDT by MadIvan
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To: MadIvan
If you don't want me to post to you, don't post to me.

The facts of the British war experience are what they are and it is you who ignore these facts, not I.

I was so worried that you would go sulk in the corner by yourself and I am now so relieved that you have decided to stay.
457 posted on 05/05/2003 2:41:08 PM PDT by Pukka Puck
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To: MadIvan
"I pinged you to a number of articles that proved you to the contrary that they were doing "little"."

No, you pinged me to articles that made it very clear that the British troops were doing very little. The articles were about tiny "raids" on the outskirts of Baghdad, not major engagements. The Brits did not get going in Basra until after the Americans took Baghdad and by doing so, the resistance in Basra collapsed, allowing the British to finally take Basra in an anticlimactic battle after the game was already up.
458 posted on 05/05/2003 2:45:11 PM PDT by Pukka Puck
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To: Pukka Puck
Pukka:

I posted articles regarding the Royal Marines raiding Basra, artillery fights in Basra, snatch and grab of Ba'ath leaders, and so on. Men showing far more bravery than you can possibly ever know.

But this leads me to my final point - discourse only works if you are willing to yield in the face of facts. In spite of the articles I showed you, you have judged (and God knows what military expertise you have to judge such things), that it was "little". Well men fought, fought hard, suffered and died in those "little fights". Hardly "little", but you simply don't want to acknowledge it for whatever reason.

If you want to insult Britain, go right ahead. Insult the lads too while you're at it. At first, I thought you might be open to persuasion and logic to do otherwise. I've been disappointed on this score. Then I argued with you because I was worried that others might have believed your nonsense. I shouldn't have worried. That means that in the final analysis, you're just one man (with a few friends maybe), with a chip on your shoulder and a bias, who doesn't really influence or affect anyone. As such, arguing with you is wasting my time. You spouting off as you do, makes it worse for yourself, not for me, the longer you continue. If people agree with you, fine. But so far, none are the ones I've been privileged to call friends here.

In conclusion, "knock yourself out, kid".

Any future posts from you will not be replied to.

Ivan

459 posted on 05/05/2003 3:01:39 PM PDT by MadIvan
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To: Pukka Puck
quote

____
engagements. The Brits did not get going in Basra until after the Americans took Baghdad and by doing so, the resistance in Basra collapsed, allowing the British to finally take Basra in an anticlimactic battle after the game was already up.
____

Just one small comment basra did actually fall just before bagdhad. (Official dates are the 7th and 9th respectively)

460 posted on 05/05/2003 3:07:55 PM PDT by may18
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