STARS ESCAPE FROM ASTRONOMICAL ZOO

Thoth-l Volume VII-3 ^ | 4/2/2003 | Don Scott

[Darksheare]

I usually don't pay attention to science matters, but when I do I end up with oddish questions popping into my head.
Like: Photons behave as both wave and particle.
Might neutrinos also behave the same way, and if so, would this explain teh oscillationand flavor changes of them?
Kinda like a ringing bell's vibration?
(If that analogy makes any sense. Bell rings, is actually vibrating and imperceptibly changing shape. I dunno, I'm half beat here.)

[Physicist]

I'm not disagreeing with you on this one, but what is your explaination for the multiple anomalies cited in the article as proof that solar evolution is taking place faster than it should under our current nuclear models?

The anomalies cited in the article have not been demonstrated to be in contradiction to the standard stellar model. We may or may not be able to account for specific behaviors of specific stars (I don't know about these phenomena in particular), but that doesn't refute the theory. It's incumbent upon the "electric universe" people to prove that the current models are inconsistent with the phenomena. Simply saying, "I don't know how you get from A to B" doesn't prove that there is no path from A to B.

We similarly can't derive tornadoes or hurricanes from molecular collisions, let far alone predict them, but the fact that these phenomena occur doesn't serve as a refutation of the notion that the atmosphere is composed of molecules.

[Physicist]

Why would the neutrino spectra be elongated in the horizontal?

Good question; I don't know. Perhaps it's from the shape of the solar corona, or maybe it's a neutrino equivalent of "zodiacal light".

[Physicist]

Photons behave as both wave and particle. Might neutrinos also behave the same way, and if so, would this explain teh oscillationand flavor changes of them?

All subatomic particles behave as both waves and particles. That alone doesn't explain why the flavors will oscillate back and forth.

The crucial fact is that there is a set of orthogonal flavor states, and a set of orthogonal mass states, but that these two sets of basis vectors don't exactly line up. If a given neutrino starts out as a pure electron neutrino, for example, it will be a superposition (a mixture) of three different mass states. The quantum wavefunctions of these different mass states, being forced to move at the same velocity, will therefore have different frequencies, and these frequencies will "beat" against each other. The beat frequency is the oscillation frequency between the flavor states.

In order to know what the flavor oscillation frequencies are, you have to know the neutrino masses (or rather, the differences in the squares of the masses). Since we don't know the masses, we have to measure the oscillation lengths as a function of energy. The next generation of neutrino experiments (NuMI, MINOS, MiniBOONE, etc.) is designed to do just that.

[Darksheare]

Coolbeans.
Like putting a puzzle together blindfolded by feeling the edges.

Weird at the same time as well.
The different states interfere with each other?
(I'm not, by nature a sci type. I'm more the soldier 'push button and it goes boom' type. I also try to state things as simply as possible at times, not possible at times with sci terms and descrips.)

Neutrino mass dictates the oscillation freq, and without knowing the mass we don't know the freq. So we measure the osc length (and energy?) to infer it?

[green team 1999]

bump

[skinkinthegrass]

whoa..I need my Cliff notes...Quick! :)

[AndrewC]

Perhaps it's from the shape of the solar corona, or maybe it's a neutrino equivalent of "zodiacal light".

Interesting, but is there neutrino production in the corona? And I would not expect neutrinos to interact with much of anything in the volume portrayed.

[<1/1,000,000th%]

Seen conventionally, the nova eruption can mark the death of a star; to Bruce it was a discharge of great extent but with no fatal consequence for the star.

This is baffling. Is he claiming neutron stars and black holes don't exist? And how are his "lightning bolts" generated?

[Doctor Stochastic]

Of course neutrinos have "both wave and particle like" behavior. Everything does. Neutrinos need mass to change flavor. The latest measurements show that neutrinos do have (a really tiny) mass and thus can change flavor.

[Darksheare]

Physicist picked it up in post 44, I then moved to more questions in 45.

Hmm..
Maybe I shouldn't bug you guys too much with my questions...

[merak]

FG Sagittae has changed from blue to yellow since 1955!

As I understand it, standard astronomical theories do not allow for that, pure and simple. Something's wrong with the observation or with the theories, one way or another.

[Doctor Stochastic]

Physicist's answers were better than mine (I should have looked ahead before replying, but what the heck, this is The InterNet.)

Honest questions are always appreciated. Rhetorical questions will be treated as if they really are questions.

[Darksheare]

Doesn't bother me any.
Like I admitted, I'm not a sci type.
And I myself am guilty of not looking ahead in thread at times, so I understand that.
(Also guilty of trying to get as much info as possible about something that intrigues me. Sometimes to the point of annyance to others.)
I must, by needs, apologise for that if I have done so.

I'm still chuckling about the electric theory.
It fails to take into account the formation of progressively heavier elements in stellar bodies.
I was wondering how the deuce they'll try to explain that as well.
Sounds like those that have run into 'medved' would know how he'd respond to that one.
*Chuckle*
It's getting late here in New York, and I'm dragging tail.
I'll call it an evening and eyeball things by morning light.
If all goes well.

[Lockbar]

I don't don't care where they run, as long as its not at us traveling 50 billion miles per hour!!

[Physicist]

Interesting, but is there neutrino production in the corona?

I'm just guessing. The corona is extremely hot; if it's hot enough, there would be.

And I would not expect neutrinos to interact with much of anything in the volume portrayed.

They wouldn't, but the rate wouldn't be zero, as the sun is an extremely bright source of neutrinos. But you're right; any such effect would be swamped by the neutrinos from the Milky Way galaxy, as is obvious from the fact that the galaxy is so much brighter than the zodiacal glow. Perhaps the galaxy is what we are seeing.

Another possibility is that the elongated background is due to neutrinos associated with cosmic ray showers, that just happen to have the right energy. The non-isotropic distribution could be due to detector effects (an up-down muon veto, for example) or to physics (Earth's magnetic field shielding against incident charged cosmics in the interesting energy range, but in a direction-dependent way.)

When I'm at the department on Monday I'll ask some of the SNO men. They'll know the obvious answer look at me as some kind of moron while answering, but I'll post it.

[Physicist]

The different states interfere with each other?

Yes.

Neutrino mass dictates the oscillation freq, and without knowing the mass we don't know the freq. So we measure the osc length (and energy?) to infer it?

Just so. We do have other handles on the neutrino mass, such as making precision recoil measurements in nuclear decays, but these are exquisitely difficult experiments. People are working on them, however.

[AndrewC]

When I'm at the department on Monday I'll ask some of the SNO men. They'll know the obvious answer look at me as some kind of moron while answering, but I'll post it.

Thanks, I appreciate your effort and the explanations you have given.

[Darksheare]

Thanks.
Just asked it (Prolly rhetorically.) to see if I understood it correctly.

[Rudder]

You're next in line to me. I know zip about electric star theory.

I thought, until I read this piece, that I knew something about electricity. This article makes me ask what the meaning of electricity is. I know I'll need to re-read it, but haven't we all along seen (what we have also assumed to be) "electrical" forces at significant work in the universe?

I've always assumed that the thermonuclear and the electric were joined at the hip.

I seek guidance...