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To: MineralMan
You make good points. Let me "spin" a little bit (with bugging out my eyes or turning purple!)

"How many times has someone, or a group, armed with whatever weapons, successfully held off even a police SWAT team and gotten away? The answer is Zero."

Remember the INS/FBI Elian Gonzalez raid in Florida. Do you think that would have happened, the way it did, if the Florida family was adequately armed? I think, instead, there would have been an honest effort at negotiation.

"One A-10, with a couple of Hellfire missiles would put an end to that fantasy."

I can't remember when the military was last used against the populace. Probably the Civil War. In any case, the use by the Federal Government against the citizens of the US of military equipment of this type would make a radical change in the nature of our government. We would then have truly become a police state. All the more reason I should own a RPG tankbuster today.

"We are long past the point where an armed populace is going to overthrow any government in the USA. It ain't gonna happen. Not now. Not ever."

A few years ago, after an jury verdict in a police abuse case, that was unpopular in some parts of Los Angeles, race riots spontaneously broke out. The various police departments were unable to quell the riots. In some cases, the police retreated out of the riotous areas, leaving the law-abiding population at risk. A few Korean-born shopkeepers were able to protect their inner-city businesses by getting on the roof with legal guns and firing at the rioters. I believe that the Second Admendment (among others) gives me the individual right to protect myself, my family, my business, and my community - especially in the absence functioning law enforcement. It doesn't matter to me if the criminal threatening me is from the inner city or wears a BATF flak jacket.

"The best civilian firearms are laughable, even compared to the firepower a small town SWAT team can bring to the battle."

Read up on guerilla warfare and sniping tactics. One well-placed shot, taking out a field commander is as effective as bloodying the entire opposition. You were correct in an earlier statment - if you get yourself beseiged, you're dead.

Clearly, you have thought about this a lot. Your suggestions to win the war at the ballot box are on the mark. But I believe, without the Second Amendment, the others are meaningless.

61 posted on 04/29/2003 2:24:13 PM PDT by capitan_refugio
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To: capitan_refugio
the use by the Federal Government against the citizens of the US of military equipment of this type would make a radical change in the nature of our government. We would then have truly become a police state.

The Bonus March of 1932 and Waco come to mind.

98 posted on 04/29/2003 4:07:04 PM PDT by Teacher317
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To: capitan_refugio
"I can't remember when the military was last used against the populace."

Here's a brief historical primer:

1920s and 1930s when federal troops assaulted WWI veterans in Washington DC who were seeking their promised benefits;

1970 when Ohio National Guard fired on and killed students (so what if they were protesting the war: free speech, and all that; they posed no threat to the Guard);

1970s National Guard killed students at Jackson State;

1993 in Waco, of course. Besides FBI and BATF, there were some military troops (not too many, though) present.
108 posted on 04/29/2003 4:53:02 PM PDT by ought-six
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To: capitan_refugio
Your suggestions to win the war at the ballot box are on the mark. But I believe, without the Second Amendment, the others are meaningless.

Exactly. The vote means nothing without the means to enforce it in the hands of the citizens.

113 posted on 04/29/2003 5:11:14 PM PDT by 45Auto (Big holes are (almost) always better.)
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