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IRAQ: Chemical find 'may be rocket fuel'
News Interactive - Australia ^ | April 29, 2003 | Louis Meixler in Baiji -- AP

Posted on 04/28/2003 6:00:09 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach

A METAL drum found in Iraq that initially tested positive for a nerve agent could in fact contain rocket fuel, a US expert has said.

Two mobile chemical laboratories found nearby might also have been used for mixing the fuel and not making banned weapons, the chief chemical weapons officer of the 4th Infantry Division added.

Further tests on the tan 209-litre drum were expected in the coming days, said Lieutenant Colonel Valentin Novikov.

Initial tests showed that the contents of the barrel tested positive for the nerve agent cyclosarin and a blister agent that could be a precursor of mustard gas.

But, by design, initial test procedures favour positive readings, erring on the side of caution to protect soldiers.

Two teams of experts were brought in at the weekend for additional testing at the site near Baiji.

One team conducted three tests, which "were not totally conclusive", Novikov said.

The second team, a specialist Mobile Exploitation Team, "suspects that it might be rocket fuel", Novikov said.

That team is expected to return to the site in the coming days for further tests.

"There is a chance that it could be chemical weapons, but we don't know for sure," Novikov said, speaking outside of the 4th Infantry headquarters, a former palace in Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit.

The barrel was found in a field of rolling hills punctuated by mounds of earth that hid missiles and tubes filled with missile parts.

US special operations soldiers were suspicious of two clusters that held a total of 14 barrels in the area and did an initial test on one barrel, which indicated the possible presence of blister agents.

Suspicions apparently were raised by the presence of two unmarked vans near the barrels. Inside the vans were three cylinders for mixing liquids and a dosage chart in English and Russian. Green camouflage netting was draped across the front of one of the vans.

Near the site was a low, brown sandstone building that had 150 gas masks of a higher quality that those usually used by Iraqi soldiers.

Soldiers at first suspected that the van was a chemical warfare laboratory.

Novikov said, however, that "it could be" a rocket fuel mixing station.

The initial tests were conducted last week by chemical warfare experts with the 1st Squadron of the 10th Cavalry Regiment. All three of their tests pointed to nerve or blister agents.

There have been numerous false reports that coalition forces have turned up chemical or biological weapons in Iraq.

The Associated Press


TOPICS: Breaking News; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: chemicalweapons; drums; iraq; iraqifreedom; nervegas; rocketfuel; techindex; wmd
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1 posted on 04/28/2003 6:00:09 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Nearly the same report from a US source:

Tests Cast Doubt on Chemical Find in Iraq

_____________________________________________

Today: April 28, 2003 at 17:51:27 PDT

Tests Cast Doubt on Chemical Find in Iraq

By LOUIS MEIXLER
ASSOCIATED PRESS

BAIJI, Iraq (AP) -

A metal drum found in northern Iraq that initially tested positive for nerve and blister agents might instead contain rocket fuel, according to new tests, a U.S. chemical weapons expert said Monday.

More tests were planned in the coming days on the 55-gallon drum, said Lt. Col. Valentin Novikov, the chief chemical weapons officer of the 4th Infantry Division, the unit which found the site.

Novikov's comments raised the prospect that the discovery was the latest in a series of false alarms as U.S. troops try to find the remains of Saddam Hussein's suspected programs for biological, chemical and nuclear weapons.

The suspicious barrel was among 14 barrels found in an open field near the Tigris River town of Baiji, among mounds of earth that hid missiles and missile parts. U.S. troops performed an initial test and found indications the barrel may contain the nerve agent cyclosarin and a blister agent that could be a precursor of mustard gas.

By design, initial test procedures favor positive readings, erring on the side of caution to protect soldiers.

Two teams of experts were brought in this weekend for additional testing.

One team conducted three tests, but the tests "were not totally conclusive," Novikov said.

The second team, a specialist Mobile Exploitation Team, "suspects that it might be rocket fuel," Novikov said.

That team is expected to return to the site in the coming days for further tests.

"There is a chance that it could be chemical weapons, but we don't know for sure," Novikov said, speaking outside of the 4th Infantry headquarters, a former palace in Saddam's hometown of Tikrit, near Baiji.

Also found at the site were two unmarked vans that soldiers first suspected to be mobile chemical laboratories. Inside the vans were three cylinders for mixing liquids and a dosage chart in English and Russian. Green camouflage netting was draped across the front of one of the vans.

Novikov, however, said the vans "could be" a rocket fuel mixing station.

Near the site was a low, brown sandstone building that had 150 gas masks that are of a higher quality that those usually used by Iraqi soldiers.

The initial tests on the barrel were conducted late Friday by Lt. Valerie Phipps and Pfc. Jeremy McCullough, chemical warfare experts with the 1st Squadron of the 10th Cavalry Regiment.

All three of their tests pointed to nerve or blister agents. Afterward, Phipps and McCullough left the area and burned their chemical warfare suits for fear that they were contaminated.

There have been numerous false reports that coalition forces have turned up chemical or biological weapons.

Mustard agent burns skin, eyes and lungs, while exposure to high amounts cyclosarin may lead to loss of muscle control, twitching, paralysis, unconsciousness, convulsions, coma, and death within minutes.

Abrams tanks and Bradley fighting vehicles ringed the 1.5-square-mile field Sunday and Monday, watching for intruders. Troops had permission to shoot to kill if anyone entered the area, which was near the Tigris River about a mile outside Baiji.

--



Las Vegas SUN main page



2 posted on 04/28/2003 6:07:07 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (Where is Saddam? and where is Tom Daschle?)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
I have really had it with all this crap. They come out as if they found something, they say they are positive, and then they go on to say it isn't. The US government is at fault for making this available to the media. They need to wait until they are 100% sure. Who is testing these materials in the first place?
3 posted on 04/28/2003 6:25:44 PM PDT by yonif
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To: yonif
From the article:

___________________________________________

By design, initial test procedures favor positive readings, erring on the side of caution to protect soldiers.

Two teams of experts were brought in this weekend for additional testing.

4 posted on 04/28/2003 6:30:03 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (Where is Saddam? and where is Tom Daschle?)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
One of the posters who replied to my thread earlier today said that the Iraqis mix two chemicals together immediately before intended use to create the nerve agent. He also indicated that pesticides could be a precursor to nerve gas. If that is the case, the presence of two or more precursor agents, while technically not chemical weapons themselves, could be proof of potential chemical weapons, especially if mixing facilities are present also. See Suspicious Discovery Apparently Wasn't Chemical Weapons
5 posted on 04/28/2003 6:45:54 PM PDT by CedarDave (The number of Saddam sightings is rapidly approaching those of Elvis!)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Rocket fuel being mistaken for sarin and lewisite? Seems pretty improbable to me. Totally different kinds of compounds. Doesn't pass the smell test. Yes you could mistake pesticides for nerve agents, as they are similar kinds of stuff, but for rocket fuel, which generally isn't mixed per se, but rather refined off site somewhere. I've never heard of rocket fuel being mixed just before loading. In fact I've never heard of it being mixed at all, but at least that I can envision, sort of like adding nitromethane to your high octane racing fuel. This whole story doesn't pass the smell test.
6 posted on 04/28/2003 6:54:23 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: yonif
They come out as if they found something

"They" don't say anything.

It's the media.

7 posted on 04/28/2003 7:01:19 PM PDT by Howlin
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To: El Gato
"Rocket fuel being mistaken for sarin and lewisite? Seems pretty improbable to me."

Makes you wonder about the skill level of these teams. Maybe bringing Blixie on a short leash might not be a bad idea.............no, scratch that.

8 posted on 04/28/2003 7:03:54 PM PDT by cookcounty
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To: El Gato
"Rocket fuel being mistaken for sarin and lewisite? Seems pretty improbable to me."

Makes you wonder about the skill level of these teams. Maybe bringing Blixie on a short leash might not be a bad idea.............no, scratch that.

9 posted on 04/28/2003 7:04:28 PM PDT by cookcounty
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To: CedarDave
One of the posters who replied to my thread earlier today said that the Iraqis mix two chemicals together immediately before intended use to create the nerve agent. He also indicated that pesticides could be a precursor to nerve gas. If that is the case, the presence of two or more precursor agents, while technically not chemical weapons themselves, could be proof of potential chemical weapons, especially if mixing facilities are present also

Binary nerve agents are generally mixed automatically, after the round is fired, not before loading. The reason being that you don't have a nerve agent until that mixing occurs, so it's safer for your own troops. It also makes the round more storable. That doesn't mean it couldn't be done as you describe, but just that it seems unlikely, because the additional handling under field conditions would greatly increase the danger to your own troops, not that Saddam cared about his own troops, but trained chemical troops are hard to replace.

AFAIK, pesticides are not "precursers" to chemical weapons, but rather are related compounds, as I understand it. I'm sure there is a chemist or three about that could illuminate that aspect further.

10 posted on 04/28/2003 7:06:38 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: CedarDave; El Gato; yonif; Howlin
Interesting LInk.

Check out this :

The nurseries can't afford pesticides, but every barrel we find in the country is full of them.

11 posted on 04/28/2003 7:16:38 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (California needs to cut the budget!)
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To: Grampa Dave; Shermy
Good discussion here!
12 posted on 04/28/2003 7:20:58 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (Where is Saddam? and where is Tom Daschle?)
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To: El Gato; Carry_Okie
This whole story doesn't pass the smell test!

CO do you know some of the chemistry that might be involved with these finds as described... Or perhaps someone on the board who knows some chemistry?

13 posted on 04/28/2003 7:25:44 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (Where is Saddam? and where is Tom Daschle?)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
Sorry, I don't know diddly about rocket fuel.
14 posted on 04/28/2003 7:30:58 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (California! See how low WE can go!)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
"There have been numerous false reports..."

You can say that again!!

I wonder if perhaps we could use a better kind of equipment.
15 posted on 04/28/2003 7:31:19 PM PDT by whadizit
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
"The nurseries can't afford pesticides...."

Iraq must be the most bug-infested country on the planet. The people had no food, etc., but, by Jove, they had their pesticides.
16 posted on 04/28/2003 7:33:01 PM PDT by whadizit
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To: El Gato
It kind of sounds like thier initial test for the presence of WMD chemicals is
"Is it wet? Yep! Must be chemical weapons - Call the media!"
17 posted on 04/28/2003 7:33:39 PM PDT by clamboat
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To: El Gato
There may be something to that but I'm no expert.
The rocket fuel would be IRFNA "Inhibited Red Fuming Nitric Acid".

This was encountered in the first gulf war. Anyway what I read is it can cause symptoms of chemical exposure BUT I don't know if it can be mistaken for chemical weapons with a test.

Look here for more.

http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/irfna/
18 posted on 04/28/2003 7:33:54 PM PDT by this_ol_patriot
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To: whadizit; CedarDave
Right, and the pesticides were always around military bases as I recall!
19 posted on 04/28/2003 7:35:11 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (Where is Saddam? and where is Tom Daschle?)
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To: El Gato; *tech_index; Sparta; freedom9; martin_fierro; PatriotGames; Mathlete; fjsva; grundle; ...
Any chemists on the ping list?

We need some help here!

20 posted on 04/28/2003 7:37:38 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (Where is Saddam? and where is Tom Daschle?)
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