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Show of Shia power unsettles the allies
The Times (U.K.) ^ | 04/23/03 | Richard Beeston

Posted on 04/22/2003 2:27:14 PM PDT by Pokey78

SCENES of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi Shia Muslims expressing their newfound political power on the streets of Iraq’s cities are causing growing concern in Western and Arab capitals.

A fortnight after American and British troops deposed Saddam Hussein’s regime, there is a growing consensus that the only credible force to have emerged in the country is the Shia clergy and its followers, many of whom advocate the creation of an Iranian-style Islamic state.

“There is real concern,” a senior British official said. “The Iraqi Shia are the only group to have made any real impact so far. There was a feeling that the Shia were more secular than those in Iran. Now we are not so sure.”

The United States and Britain have vowed to replace Saddam’s dictatorship with a democratic government representing all of Iraq’s ethnic and religious groups.

Jay Garner, the retired US Army general in charge of Iraq’s civil administration, said: “The new government of Iraq will have one leader, one army, one government.”

But that vision of a multi-ethnic democracy could be seriously challenged by the Shia, who make up more than 60 per cent of the Iraqi population and traditionally have been excluded from power by the minority Sunni Muslim community.

Brutalised by decades of oppression by Saddam, the Shias have wasted no time filling the power vacuum left by the overthrow of the Baathist regime. Already Shia clerics are in complete control of the Baghdad suburb of Sadr city, a slum of two million people. They also run several southern towns, including al-Kut and the holy cities of Najaf and Karbala, where a million Shia pilgrims are expected to worship today.

They have also told American and British forces that they will not tolerate any prolonged occupation of Iraq. “In the begining, our opposition to foreign occupation will be expressed by peaceful means,” Sheikh Qaazem al- Nasari, a leading Shia, said. “If, after a certain point, non- violence produces no result, we will then have to decide what to do.”

The threat will not be taken idly. Martyrdom is an integral part of the Shia culture. In the 1980s Shia militants used suicide bombings against US Marines and the American Embassy in Beirut to drive the US out of Lebanon and later Israel.

Three main Shia factions have emerged in Iraq over the past weeks. Sayed Muqtada al-Sadr, 22, whose father and two brothers were killed by Saddam in 1999, is the newest and most aggressive political force in the land. His followers are blamed for the murder of Abdul Majid al-Khoei, a rival Shia leader with close links to Tony Blair and the Bush Administration. He is also accused of intimidating Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani, the most senior Shia religious leader in the country.

Ayatollah Muhammad Baqr al-Hakim, who heads the Supreme Council for Islamic Resistance in Iraq, is supported and armed by Iran. Some Iraqis fear that he plans to return home from exile in Tehran to emulate the late Iranian leader Ayatollah Khomeini, who seized power after the revolution that overthrew the Shah of Iran and established a strict Islamic state.

Ari Fleischer, the White House spokesman, made clear yesterday that America would not tolerate an Iranian-style theocracy hijacking its plans for democracy in Iraq. The Iraqi state “has to be in accordance with those principles of democratic freedom and tolerance”, he said. “That is not inconsistent with a state that has religious elements to it.”

He added: “Iran certainly is not an example of democracy or a country in which people are free. So certainly we want to make certain that (Saddam’s regime) is not replaced by another type of dictatorship.”

The US military authorities insist that they have plans to address the problem. On Saturday they will host a meeting of Iraqi leaders in Baghdad — part of consultations to encourage leaders to form an interim authority. However, most of the main Shia groups have boycotted the process.

Faleh Jabar, an Iraqi academic at Birkbeck College, London University, said: “These people are winning by default because nothing is being done to encourage the silent majority in Iraq, those who favour a civil administration. What we are witnessing is mob rule. Unless something is done to counter it, the country could be plunged into civil war.”

Nevertheless, the Bush Administration insists that it is still too early to write off hopes of building a democratic future for Iraq. Sources in Washington played down the Shia demonstrations as a predictable expression of post-Saddam fervour, rather than evidence of an overwhelming political force for theocracy.

US officials driving post- conflict policy in Washington see the protests as one of the many political trends among Iraqi Shia. They believe that the more democratic Islamic forces, who hold strong religious views but do not believe in imposing them on others, form a quieter majority that will hold sway in the end.

Washington believes that Shia hardliners, who include a violently anti-Western faction, are so splintered that they will be unable to present a unified position. Officials also believe that ties between the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq, one of the more hardline groups, and Iran will loosen as Iraq’s new government emerges, reducing the influence of Tehran’s conservatives on Iraqi politics.

The line-up of Shia leaders

Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani

The most senior Shia religious figure in Iraq, he was held under house arrest by Saddam for 15 years. Sistani, 73, is based in Najaf, the centre of Shia religious thought for more than a thousand years. His belief that clerics should advise but not govern is popular with the Americans.

Muqtada al-Sadr

The son of the revered cleric Ayotallah Mohammed Sadeq al-Sadr, murdered by Saddam’s secret police in 1999. Men loyal to al-Sadr, 22, were implicated in the murder last week of Sheikh Majid al-Khoie, a Western-backed rival. He is believed to be behind a move to force Sistani into exile, and is popular with young Shias.

Ayatollah Mohammed Baqer al-Hakim

In Iran since 1980, al-Hakim, 63, is head of the Supreme Council of Islamic Revolution in Iraq, and is backed by Iran. Before the war he was the most prominant Shia leader but many are suspicious of his links with Iran.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: alhakim; alsadr; civiladministration; democracy; interimauthority; iraqifreedom; jabar; jaygarner; khomeini; order; powerstruggle; shiamuslims; sistani
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To: risk
I'm not really sure how I could get involved. Other than putting an occasional opinion out here, and hoping the idea ends up getting presented to those actually doing the structuring.

The key I think is going to be a weaker federal system than we have. The US has proven that if you give the Federal Government the power to tax and distribute funds however they see fit, they can effectively exert control over how the states govern.

All the Feds have to do is provide matching funds. Example, the Feds have no power to regulate speed limits in states, but by providing highway funds to those states that bend to the Feds will, they were able to enforce speed limits nationwide.

The advantage that the US has is that everyone buys into the bill of rights and the Judicial branches authority to protect those rights. That's one of the challenges, I see in Iraq, is that the Shiites aren't necessarily going to buy into basic rights. If Islamic law is allowed to trump constitutional law, Iraw will falter. It is going to be critical to get the Shiites to agree in such a way that they are bound by Islamic law to honor the constitution.





21 posted on 04/22/2003 3:00:40 PM PDT by DannyTN (Note left on my door by a pack of neighborhood dogs.)
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To: montag813
I hope someone in our government is listening to you, montag813.
22 posted on 04/22/2003 3:00:56 PM PDT by risk
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To: Wright is right!
Flamed? What are the threads?
23 posted on 04/22/2003 3:01:27 PM PDT by risk
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To: vbmoneyspender; billorites
"Lovely people," indeed, Billorites. And VBM, one does not need to be a handwringing reporter to see reason to fear the kind of religious extremism currently on display in Karbala. Seeing men dancing around in a blind frenzy beating themselves bloody over some dude who had his head chopped off about 800 or so years ago is terrifying. These are not people with whom one can reason in a 21st Century context.
24 posted on 04/22/2003 3:02:22 PM PDT by Wolfstar (Now to turn our attention to the reelection of a great President.)
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To: DannyTN
That's one of the challenges, I see in Iraq, is that the Shiites aren't necessarily going to buy into basic rights. If Islamic law is allowed to trump constitutional law, Ira[q] will falter.

Yes, I agree. I don't think that Germany or Japan had a lot of citizens lining up to support our occupation. I hope we're not planning to deviate too much from the "successful" model established by MacArthur and Marshall.

People, I believe the Bush administration tests the waters by putting out various ideas and seeing their reaction. I think sites like FR are monitored to see what the "real" patriots are thinking. Let your opinions be heard. Also, write to the President and his staff and explain how you think.

25 posted on 04/22/2003 3:07:41 PM PDT by risk
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To: Pokey78
Interesting rounds being made on the talk show ciruit;

EX Director of the CIA James Woolsey was on yesterday...commenting on the Shia marches.

"Iran is active in thought projections in Iraq....this does not bode well for reconstruction".

Iraq is on the verge of tensions that rival Northern Ireland when groups collect to march.

What goes as a media play..."Hey look they are liberated...watch them march...
Is a Kodak of "Win the masses...win their minds".

Iran..exploiting

Nothing new....

26 posted on 04/22/2003 3:09:11 PM PDT by Light Speed
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To: StolarStorm
I suspect that the Iranian Ayatollahs think they will be able to run us off just like they did Carter -- with the same strategy. If that's the case they are completely misunderestimating GWB, like everybody else.
27 posted on 04/22/2003 3:13:03 PM PDT by johnb838 (Understand the root causes of American Anger)
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Comment #28 Removed by Moderator

To: Wolfstar
Look, the media has been slobbering for a blood-bath in Kerbala ever since the looting stopped being the story du jour. Let the Shi'a have their little S/M fest, then they'll all go home and we'll move on. This is definitely not the time to be going wobbly.
29 posted on 04/22/2003 3:17:27 PM PDT by johnb838 (Understand the root causes of American Anger)
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To: Pokey78
Impose a constitution like in Japan. We won, we rule.
30 posted on 04/22/2003 3:24:02 PM PDT by Imperialist
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To: risk
The next one to get kill will be Ayatollah Ali Sistani.
31 posted on 04/22/2003 3:29:57 PM PDT by Minty
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To: johnb838
Going wobbly, no. Observing the dangers — and, yes, terrors — of a 12th Century religious fanaticism that is totally alien to a 21st Century world is hardly "going wobbly."
32 posted on 04/22/2003 3:36:46 PM PDT by Wolfstar (Bush-Cheney: four more years!)
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To: Pokey78
I heard there were ten million of them in Baghdad stuffed into one phone booth making abnoxious collect calls to the NY Times
33 posted on 04/22/2003 3:44:22 PM PDT by joesnuffy (Moderate Islam Is For Dilettantes)
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To: montag813
"This can only be accomplished if WE impose a constitution like we did in Japan and Germany"

bingo! this isn't the first country of religious militant zealots that we've put the brakes on. if a civil war breaks out there between sunni and shia, i hope we stand back and let it play out long enough to let both sides exhaust themselves. but perhaps SARS will intervene and kick the poop out of all of them.
34 posted on 04/22/2003 3:45:04 PM PDT by jed turtle (Trust in the Lord and acknowledge Him in all your ways)
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To: Pokey78
“There is real concern,” a senior British official said. “The Iraqi Shia are the only group to have made any real impact so far. There was a feeling that the Shia were more secular than those in Iran. Now we are not so sure.”

I am real worried. This is not going right.

35 posted on 04/22/2003 3:46:55 PM PDT by Theresa
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To: DannyTN
The key I think is going to be a weaker federal system than we have.

That is the key. Iraq has never been a cohesive country, and 25 years of dictatorship have effectively strangled initiative, leaving a void that is only too vulnerable to religious fanaticism, which Iran and Syria are only too glad to promote.

I know the Kurds have their own issues, but they are beginning to look like the voice of reason compared to the Sunnis and Shiites. I was looking through the Yahoo Iraq war slideshow today, and was struck by the orderly meeting between Garner and the Kurds, versus the screaming Shiite mobs in the south.

This is going to be tough, and I think the U.S. is going to have to get tough to pull it off.

36 posted on 04/22/2003 3:49:52 PM PDT by browardchad
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To: Minty
A federal system has the chance of success by accommodating wishes of different sectors of Iraq in a loose confederation. Unfortunately, the politicians in this country have forgotten this was the way our country was originally formed. A large regulated central authority lacks the diversity our Republic originally had.

Now we see the fallacy in operation in Afghanistan which we call democracy. The only control in Afghanistan is in the capitol. The rest of the country insists on governing their own area. The same model is now appearing in Iraq. If we continue trying to impose a strong central authority it will fail.

37 posted on 04/22/2003 3:52:57 PM PDT by meenie
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To: Pokey78
The Shias are no angels either. Just what Iraq needs...an Islamic state like Iran has. With 60% of the population being Shia, the US has it's work cut out for it. They're the ones now calling for the US to leave now. They can hardly wait to install Shia law and cleanse Iraq of other factions.
38 posted on 04/22/2003 4:08:12 PM PDT by ETERNAL WARMING
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To: Pokey78
None of us should have expected a liberal democracy to pop out of nowhere. The next 6 months will be crucial. If there aren't very encouraging signs by then, we should drop the pipe-dream of keeping Iraq unified and stable at the same time. No matter what, it looks less and less likely that we'll have a long-term military presence in Iraq, even if that were the original plan.
39 posted on 04/22/2003 4:14:37 PM PDT by Filibuster_60
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To: ETERNAL WARMING
The Iraqi Shiites are Arabs, not Persians like Iranians - although the Ayatollahs are heavily Arabized since Arabic is the lingua franca of Islam.

Frankly, I'm more comfortable with countries like Iran - where the leaders hate America but the public doesn't - than countries like Saudi Arabia, where the leaders don't like us and the public hates us even more. If it comes down to a choice between two evils, we'll have to go for the lesser one.
40 posted on 04/22/2003 4:22:25 PM PDT by Filibuster_60
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