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THE NATIONAL SALES TAX HOAX
uhuh.com ^ | John William Kurowski

Posted on 04/22/2003 10:40:02 AM PDT by sheltonmac

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To: Poohbah
It just that the legitimate transaction, today, is taxed in an obnoxiously stupid manner.

That is a completely different argument. In fact it isn't an argument, it is an opinion.

The fact is that a sales tax can't tax transactions in the underground economy any better than an income tax.

41 posted on 04/22/2003 11:33:14 AM PDT by SolidSupplySide
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To: SolidSupplySide
"Transactions in the underground economy such as drug deals don't get taxed by either a sales tax or an income tax."

From what I understand, the huge taxes placed on tobacco products actually helped create a burgeoning black market for cigarettes.

42 posted on 04/22/2003 11:34:17 AM PDT by sheltonmac
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To: Poohbah
It just that the legitimate transaction, today, is taxed in an obnoxiously stupid manner.

So, you admit that nothing would actually change under a NRST?

Seems like SolidSupplySide is making some progress after all.

43 posted on 04/22/2003 11:36:08 AM PDT by balrog666 (When in doubt, tell the truth. - Mark Twain)
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To: balrog666
The price of domestic goods would fall dramatically, and the price of foreign goods would rise.

False statement created by the sales tax lobby.

Real prices will remain essentially unchanged. We can't (sales) tax ourselves into prosperity.

44 posted on 04/22/2003 11:36:35 AM PDT by SolidSupplySide
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To: sheltonmac
That underground tobacco market is nothing compared to the underground gasoline market which New York authorties estimated in the billions in NYC alone. Both incidentally, are run by the Russian mob at least in the NYC area.
45 posted on 04/22/2003 11:37:17 AM PDT by JohnGalt (Class of '98)
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To: balrog666
So, you admit that nothing would actually change under a NRST?

Nope.

46 posted on 04/22/2003 11:37:49 AM PDT by Poohbah (Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women!)
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To: SolidSupplySide
It probably would serve us better to rid of Social Security also. Why do we have to hold on to these Big Gvt ideas and programs that rob us of our money and autonomy
47 posted on 04/22/2003 11:38:00 AM PDT by rebel85
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To: SolidSupplySide
A sales tax *is* a VAT.

Not in the sense that a VAT is typically multi-stage, i.e., goods are taxed at each stage of production or where they otherwise change hands. A retail sales tax is a single-stage tax imposed only on a final retail sale.

48 posted on 04/22/2003 11:39:50 AM PDT by kevkrom
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To: SolidSupplySide
False statement created by the sales tax lobby.

Thanks. I agree with you and have argued the same point in the past.

As a manufacturer, I know that my costs will change less than 2% from the NRST, so no change will occur in my prices and yet, at the same time, the cost to my customers will go up 23% due to the NRST. Guess what happens to my business then and how many people I will have to lay off.

49 posted on 04/22/2003 11:40:26 AM PDT by balrog666 (When in doubt, tell the truth. - Mark Twain)
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To: balrog666
So, you admit that nothing would actually change under a NRST?

The following would change under the NRST, and not by any so-called "flat tax":

There's probably more, but this will do for a start.

50 posted on 04/22/2003 11:53:51 AM PDT by kevkrom
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To: balrog666
As a manufacturer, I know that my costs will change less than 2% from the NRST

Oh, really?

How much do you pay in income taxes and FICA taxes for you and your employees?

How much do you pay in taxes on profits turned by your business?

Have you looked into how much the price of your raw materials are inflated by taxes paid by your suppliers? Taxes on services you use (power, phones, etc.)?

How much do you spend each year complying with taxation, including legally avoiding paying taxes (e.g., tax shelters) in both actual costs and opportunity costs?

No way this adds up to only "2%". That is naive to a fault.

51 posted on 04/22/2003 11:59:15 AM PDT by kevkrom
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To: kevkrom
You missed the simple point here that the argument for taxing the underground economy, e.g.,

When the drug seller pays for other goods, such as cars, clothes, et cetera, the proceeds of his transaction get taxed at that point.

is NOT an argument FOR the NRST. That's all.

52 posted on 04/22/2003 11:59:17 AM PDT by balrog666 (When in doubt, tell the truth. - Mark Twain)
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To: balrog666
I never claimed that -- take that up with Pricipled.

You do concede, though, that the points I brought up in my #50 are correct?

53 posted on 04/22/2003 12:01:14 PM PDT by kevkrom
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To: kevkrom
How much do you pay in income taxes and FICA taxes for you and your employees?

Nothing. It comes out of the employee's conpensation.

How much do you pay in taxes on profits turned by your business?

Nothing, it's all dividends and perks.

Have you looked into how much the price of your raw materials are inflated by taxes paid by your suppliers? Taxes on services you use (power, phones, etc.)?

Yes, changes will be insignificant.

How much do you spend each year complying with taxation, including legally avoiding paying taxes (e.g., tax shelters) in both actual costs and opportunity costs?

About $100 a year for "Turbotax for Business" and (surprise!) opportunity costs aren't real money.

No way this adds up to only "2%". That is naive to a fault.

Nope. Try again.

54 posted on 04/22/2003 12:03:04 PM PDT by balrog666 (When in doubt, tell the truth. - Mark Twain)
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To: sheltonmac
"...a national revenue must be obtained; but the system must be such a one, that, while it secures the object of revenue it shall not be oppressive to our constituents."

Well, it's obvious the present, global money monger owned, federal farce has no problem with being oppressive.

55 posted on 04/22/2003 12:06:47 PM PDT by eskimo
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To: Principled
Is the National Sales Tax (as described above) a VAT? A VAT would be an internal tax.

A National Retail Sales Tax would tax all products, internally manufactured or imported.

56 posted on 04/22/2003 12:09:50 PM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: sheltonmac
Regardless of how it was collected, it was still an "internal tax" as far as the original comment was concerned.

It's also worth noting that the tax was imposed on whiskey, and whiskey alone, instead of any number of other products that could have been taxed. The reason for this was simple -- those esteemed folks known as the Founding Fathers had no intention of taxing commodities like tobacco and cotton because they themselves would have been adversely affected by it.

57 posted on 04/22/2003 12:09:57 PM PDT by Alberta's Child
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To: kevkrom
You do concede, though, that the points I brought up in my #50 are correct?

I will concede that there will be massive changes in the economy from the NRST. Assuming you can get enough elected weasels to agree on one single version that deals with the income tax, social security, medicare, all excise taxes, user fees, and everything else the weasels have embedded in our economy. And, that's assuming that you could ever get enough elected weasels to completely abandon their source of power, money, and influence. And, finally, anybody who trusts a politician not to monkey with it after passage is just naive.

For the record, if it ever passes, I predict it will just make the underground economy even bigger.

[I apologize to any weasels for comparing you to politicians]

58 posted on 04/22/2003 12:13:55 PM PDT by balrog666 (When in doubt, tell the truth. - Mark Twain)
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To: robertpaulsen
You are correct.
59 posted on 04/22/2003 12:17:16 PM PDT by Principled
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To: SolidSupplySide
If the article is about a National Retail Sales Tax, you are correct. It would be easy to circumvent.

But if the author is talking about a VAT, that would be more difficult.

60 posted on 04/22/2003 12:20:04 PM PDT by robertpaulsen
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