Iraqi Shiite Pilgrims Flock to Karbala ("Death to America")

CNN ^ | 4/22/03

[marshmallow]

KARBALA, Iraq (CNN) -- Exuberant Shiite Muslim pilgrims are surging into the central Iraqi city of Karbala, reviving a religious tradition that was not allowed under Saddam Hussein's rule.

Religious leaders said the crowd could reach several million by the peak of the observance Wednesday. The pilgrims came from all over Iraq -- some walking more than 60 miles.

[RonF]

America did a great job with the war but is absolutely mucking up the peace. Why haven't we airlifted a 1000 workmen and planeloads of materials to get water and electricity up and running again? If the Shiites provide this before we do, we're screwed.

[faithincowboys]

I hope that CNN is just being CNN, and the story is being overblown. I wonder what evil leader they are trying to get access to with reporting like this. Martin Sheen? John Kerry? Saddam in Exile?

[RonF]

Bush's next 4 years are immaterial. If he keeps going like this, he'll spend those next 4 years preparing for Gulf War III. It's the next 30 days that are of overwhelming importance, and it seems that Washington is more worried about contracts. I can't believe how slowly we're moving. Our administrator just came over to Iraq yesterday? These people need water, and electricity NOW. Not in 30 days, not in a week. Have two armed guards for every workman if you must, but get this done and get a secular administration set up. And use locals, not some exiles that have been kissing up to us for the last 10 years.

[faithincowboys]

you can't assume that all 60% of Shiites want a clerical state. So we know 40% is already opposed to a Shia fundamentalist state. Also, let's be optimistic and assume that 10% of the Shia don't want Iran part II. I can count 50%, depends on how the chads go. Please, no Iranian Al Gore.

[goodnesswins]

See my tag line.

[RonF]

Then Karzai came to testify before Congress and set them all straight...that 5 million Afghans have returned and that the schools are now open to ALL children and functioning well again.

School is still out on the truth of Karzai's testimony. Warlords have been in charge up in the Afghan hills since Alexander the Great, and life up there isn't nearly like life in the capital as far as education, women's rights, and distribution of political power.

[Steve_Seattle]

"I think Bush's team has been extremely short-sighted about the post-war situation. There doesn't really seem to be a plan."

You sound like the anti-war critics three weeks ago who said the military strategy was flawed. For Pete's sake, give it time! They HAVE been planning for the post-war scenario, in great detail and for a long time. This does not guarantee that the plan will work, but to say there is no plan is way off the mark. Do you think the Constitution was written in one week, and without bitter debate?

[txoilman]

Negative Report Alert! Negative Report Alert! Consider the source!

[the Real fifi]

It is partially what Rumsfeld calls "thumbsucking", but it is also partly an orchestrated effort by the Iranian mullahs to extend their reach. Had it not been for the CIA and DOS, Chalabi would now have an interim Iraqi Adminstration managing this stuff and the military would be free to roust out the Irani (and Syrian) troublemakers there. This is a very perilous time, though I do not believe these demonstrators represent the majority opinion. They are to create well-publicized incidents designed to create trouble for the administration both there and at home in an effort to force us to leave before the military's job is over. Free Chalabi and the INC NOW--

[ravingnutter]

It's the next 30 days that are of overwhelming importance, and it seems that Washington is more worried about contracts

Reality Check: When it was reported that we had gone outside of normal bidding procedures to speed up the process, the left started screaming about Cheney and Halliburton again (even though 7 companies were invited to bid on the job, which makes it perfectly legal). What do you think they would do if we just handed out the awards to companies that are competent to handle the job? Good Lord...I can hear it now...IMPEACHMENT...blah, blah, blah...OIL BUDDIES...blah, blah, blah...ad nauseam...

[sheltonmac]

"Kind of like the Shah of Iraq."

Don't you mean the "Shah of Iran." ;-)

The Shah served our purposes for awhile, but that actually helped breed more anti-American sentiment, culminating in that little hostage crisis.

[TLBSHOW]

ISLAM IS THE ENEMY - THAT IS THE TRUTH

[sheik yerbouty]

Any trouble this time, and they will be good candidates for "turban renewal".

[Hank Rearden]

What the hell is the matter with Moos, anyway? Between the "Arab street" and this sort of crap, we're supposed to treat them all like spoiled (or retarded) 5-year-olds.

Let's open up ANWAR and make these guys stand in the corner for a few decades - without oil they're nothing, because they produce nothing.

[RonF]

I should think that getting the water and electric plants up and running could be done by a combination of the military and the local workers who were working in those facilities to begin with. Except for certain jobs like putting out active oil well fires, most of what we're trying to do shouldn't go to foreign firms of any kind; they should go to Iraqis.

[RonF]

Question: What happens when democracy happens in a country with a 60% Shite Muslim population? Does the majority get to choose their government?

The U.S. should make sure that the majority gets to choose their government. But the U.S. Constitution, written to ensure majority rule, is also written to ensure that the majority does not tyrranize, especially in it's first 10 amendments.

A minority in Iraq (radical Shiites) want an Islamic government. The concepts that

Each individual, whether they be man or woman, Shiite or Sunni, Jew (there's a few dozen, apparently) or Christian, etc., should have an equal say in that government's constitution and execution,

Each individual should have fundamental rights that the government is forbidden to interfere with, regardless of their religion or gender,

Each individual should be equal before the law regardless of their religion or gender,

The law is supreme over all individuals - no individual or group of individuals can supercede the law without the consent of the governed,

All the individuals comprising the government are subject to recall or replacement by the electorate at regularly scheduled intervals

are foreign to these people. Majority rule as we understand it does not mean that the majority in this country can vote in any laws they please to oppress the minority. And this not what they want. Just look at Iran.

[RonF]

Let's open up ANWAR and make these guys stand in the corner for a few decades - without oil they're nothing, because they produce nothing.

I pulled up a couple articles on ANWAR. Estimates range from 3 to 16 billion barrels of oil. Both the high and low ends are quite suspect. The middle estimates seem to be around 6 or 7 bbl. This is about what the U.S. uses in one year, and you obviously can't pump all the oil out in one year. So even if you pump ANWAR dry, and do so over the course of 10 years, we'd never replace more than about 10% of our total oil consumption. ANWAR would lower prices for a while, but not that much, and then when it's dry, where's our reserve? ANWAR is not the answer to "make these guys stand in the corner for a few decades".

[mike_9958]

This isn't bad news.... its news, that's all. I don't expect CNN to broadcast good news, or cheery news. They make their money broadcasting controvesy, strife, and issues, drawing an audience in.

This why we have Michael Moore, Jesse Jackson, and today's democratic party. News organizations are not very balanced, they are are dramatic, and interesting because the general public wants them to be that way.

So all the hand wringing and bad news is to be expected out of Iraq. Let's wait and see the decisions the leaders make before we panic to much.

[ASA Vet]

By the way, what ever happened to Osama bin Laden?

[marshmallow]

I think you've muddied the waters by introducing the question of the abuse scandal. I'm not sure what it has to do with the moral justification for invading Iraq, other than being a convenient brush with which to smear the Pope and cast doubts on his motives. "He handled the scandal badly so he should shut up about the war" is poor theology.

The question the Pope was addressing was the licitness of pre-emptive military action and whether this conformed to the Catholic doctrine of "just war". I'm sure you're aware of these conditions, so I'll not repeat them. It is not necessary that he be a "geo-political strategist or military expert". In fact he's probably a much better geo-political strategist than many give him credit for, but as the leader of the Catholic Church he can and should comment on questions of war and peace.

One thing the Pope does not share is the prevailing Americo-centric view of the world which you and others subscribe to. He is the pastor of the universal church and sees things globally and this is often the source of misunderstanding and conflict. While America may believe that removing Saddam is essential for its own security he may consider that military action and its fallout will have deleterious consequences for not only America but also for Europe and Christian minorities in the Middle East. Especially since the nature of Saddam's replacement is far from certain. If it is of a radical Muslim flavor, the persecution of Iraqi Christians will reach a level unknown under the secular brutality of Saddam. I'm not sure why you think we've liberated Iraq. We've got rid of Saddam but the two things are not synonymous are they?

I consider the Pope to be a holy man. Saintly, if you will. Holy people seldom err far from the truth because of their closeness to Jesus, who is the Way, the Truth and the Life. For this reason, I'm extremely reluctant to second guess his statements in this matter. My father was not infallible either. However, when he offered advice I listened well. Firstly because he loved me and genuinely wanted to help and secondly he had greater experience in certain matters than I. Both of these conditions apply to the Pope.

The "prestige" of the Church in America is altogether irrelevant. The liberals and non-believers will always hate it. Public opinion polls are unessential for the spreading of the gospel. The abuse scandal is/was another American problem, brought on by AmChurch flouting of Vatican norms. We did it ourselves.