Rowan Williams apologises to Freemasons

Oh, but Masonry is a religion. Here are some quotes by several of the Masonic writers:

Wow, impressive you must have done quite a search on Masonry. I looked this guy Mackey up, I admit that I have never heard of him.

We sure missed the boat at our lodge, I never knew that we were a religion.

Dear Cap'n Crunch,

Your first citations establish that there is a religious quality to masonry. Considering that belief in God is required, that is a truism. I could say that the Knights of Columbus has a religious quality, as well, and is a religious institution. I could say that "the religion of the Knights of Columbus is Catholicism".

That doesn't make the Knights of Columbus a religion, of itself.

The third quote is almost a throw-away line, and even if the author means it as you interpret it, now you need to prove that either most masons agree with him, or that he has some body of evidence that conclusively supports his otherwise bald assertion, or that the gentleman in question, Mr. Coil, had some authority invested him to authoritatively make this definition for all the masonic world to accept and believe.

The fourth quote sorta works against your proposition. The writer/speaker, Mr. Pike, is more describing some sort of diluted ecumenism, allowing the use of a lowest common denominator to permit all theists to come together. That's no more a specific religion than the World Council of Churches.

Furthermore, you are entirely disregarding the meanings given to their masonic involvement by the actual men here on this forum who are masons. Messrs. Pike and Coil, to my knowledge, are not infallible authorities, able to single-handedly define what is or is not masonry. Masonry is a human-made institution which, in some parts, appeals to the divine. Even if it CLAIMS divine institution, you and I know that is false. Thus, masonry is susceptible to being what its members make it, because it is only what its members make it.

This is in contrast to the Catholic Church, founded by Jesus Christ. The Church is what God has made it, and our membership in her cannot make any real, fundamental, or lasting change in her nature.

Thus, if all Catholics in the current day denied that the Catholic Church was a religion, they would be in error because they would contradict her real nature, as established by God.

But if all masons in the current day deny that masonry is a religion, BECAUSE IT IS ONLY WHAT ITS MEMBERS MAKE OF IT, BECAUSE IT IS NOT DIVINELY-INSTITUTED NO MATTER ANY CLAIMS TO THE CONTRARY, then it is not a religion.

Yet, no Catholic ought to lose his Catholicism by becoming a mason.

sitetest

Didn't you ever wonder why Catholics have such a predilection toward the Democrat Party? It is because the Republican Party largely sided with the nativists (of which many masonic organizations were part and parcel) against Catholic immigrants in the 19th century.

Yes I have wondered and your comments explain a lot. Given that the Democrats are more often than not for abortion, and the Republicans are generally on the side of "right to life." I had up until this time found myself wondering why Catholics which are, correctly I feel, "right to life" folks, would still support the Democrats.

Regards,

Axel

Your Masons in Mexico killed more of our priests than all our modern child molesting priests combined.

Try this on for size:

The Spanish Inquisition is no more representative of modern day Catholicism, than are the some of the old quotes and claims that you have been posting about Masonry, indicative of modern day Masons.

The Spanish Inquisition The Spanish Inquisition is known for the terror it caused the inhabitants of the Iberian peninsula. Although the Inquisition originally began to purify the nation from heretics, it came to have more materialistic, racial, and political motives, instead of just purification.

The beginning of the Inquisition is generally credited to the reign of Ferdinand V and Isabella. In truth, it began before that time, and carried on long after Ferdinand and Isabella passed away. In order to better understand the Inquisition and the reasons behind it, it is necessary to first examine the events that led up to it.

The Jewish people are often associated with wealth and with being a plague to the society to which they belong. Fourteenth-century Spain was no different. In the city of Seville, there was an archdeacon named Martinez who continually tried to incite the people to purge themselves of the "dirty" Jewish citizens. After several reproaches by the Spanish Cardinal and the Pope, Martinez finally succeeded. On Ash Wednesday (March 15,1391), Martinez incited his congregation to riot. The crowd moved enmasse towards the Juderia (Jewish quarter). Some of the participants were captured by the police and flogged or beaten, but that was not enough to stop the mob. Although they did not succeed that day to destroy the Jews, the feelings that Martinez had evoked lay simmering until June 6th when the mob sacked the Juderia of Seville. It is believed that the victims numbered in the hundreds, if not thousands (C. Roth, The Spanish Inquisition, 1964). After that episode and a few sporadic others, the Jews thought themselves to be free of those problems, but this was not to be the case.

When Ferdinand V and Isabella were married, it united Aragon and Castille, the two most powerful states in Spain. At the time, Spain was on the verge of becoming one of the wealthiest nations of the period. A large part of that was due to the Jewish community. After their ordeal with Archdeacon Martinez, many Jews had professed to believe in Christianity to free themselves from persecution. It is doubtful, however, that many of the conversos, as they were to become known, were truly converted to the Christian faith. However, these conversos came to enrich and perhaps dominate almost every aspect of Spanish society (Roth, 1964). The problem was that the Jews were getting all of the things the non-Jewish, Catholic people wanted. The Jews were able to gain wealth and positions of power and authority in the kingdom as new Christians. The Catholics, however, could not do anything to them because these new Christians were at least in profession Christian.

The hierarchy of the Spanish church became concerned with the reports of heresy of some of its new members. Then in 1478, the time came that the "true Christians" had been waiting for. A young cavalier, who was trying to court a Jewish girl, went to meet the girl and came upon a group of Jews and conversos in some mysterious celebration. That night was the Jewish Passover, and the assembled had come together to celebrate it. The problem was further exacerbated because that week was also the Holy Week for the Catholic church. News spread quickly of the blaspheme that had been done. A few months later, at the urging of the heads of the Spanish church, Pope Sixtus issued a Papal Bull giving authority for an Inquisition. However, the authorization was actually given to the Spanish crown. They were to be the ones who would appoint the bishops to complete the Inquisition. Thus, the Spanish Inquisition was founded to purify the nation from heretics (Roth, 1964). Although purification was the original intent for the Inquisition, it came to have more materialistic, racial, and political motives, which led to the terror for which it is infamous.

The Spanish Inquisition was executed at the request of Isabella. She was a very pious and devout Catholic. One of her advisors, who would later become the first General Inquisitor, was Thomas de Torquemada. A rumor exists that while advising the queen in her youth, Thomas had her take a vow that should she ever reach the throne, she would devote herself to the termination of heresy and the persecution of the Jews (Roth, 1964), which at the time seemed unlikely. Now, however, she was in a position to do what she had vowed to do. Besides, the queen had already said she wanted "one country, one ruler, one faith" (N. Dirksen and M. Johnson, The Spanish Inquisition's Effect on the Church, 1996)

. The Catholic sovereigns were determined to have a united country, and they did not believe this ambition could be achieved unless all their subjects accepted one religion. This they were determined to bring about through persuasion, if possible, and if not, by force. Spain under Isabella and Ferdinand was ripe for the Inquisition; that was why the cruel institution was embraced so heartily and continued to survive until the nineteenth century (J. Plaidy, The Spanish Inquisition, 1967, p.86).

It is likely that Isabella truly wanted to end heresy within the Catholic faith. Ferdinand, however, was not as pious as his wife and probably saw the opportunity for wealth. It is highly likely that some of Spain's early triumphs abroad and at home were financed through the Spanish Inquisition. This idea of financing without increasing taxes could be seen as Machiavellian in nature. Machiavelli suggested that in order for a ruler to hold his principality, he must not overburden his people with taxes, yet he must not spend all of his funds either, or he would risk not being able to finance the maintenance of his kingdom (N. Machiavelli, The Prince, 1965). It is not likely, however, that Machiavelli would have been pleased with the attitude that the "Catholic Kings" had produced in their subjects.

The Spanish Inquisition was particularly terrifying because of its inherent characteristics. The accused never knew who their accusers were. Once arrested, the accused heretic's properties were seized. These properties were then administered at first by the Crown, and later by the General Inquisitor. This fostered the means for anyone to accuse for personal reasons, or to get gain. In many areas, ". . . men began to wonder whether a man's worldly wealth, as well as his descent, was now become [sic] an incriminating circumstance" (Roth, 1964, p. 60). The Inquisition certainly did not limit itself to purifying only those of the Jewish faith. This was especially true if the accused was found to have any Jewish blood in his ancestry. Even if the accused was now a devout Christian, he was tried as severely as possible because of his roots. The accused was also not allowed to have a lawyer or counsel for his defense, and the names of all witnesses were kept secret from him (Roth, 1964).

The punishments and tortures used to gain confessions are the most famous parts of the Inquisition. Because the trials were for spiritual matters, the Church handled them. However, the punishments were usually very much physical, so they were handled by the state. There were many means of this physical torture for confession. The two most famous or infamous were the strappado or pulley, and the aselli or water torment. The strappado was a device that used ropes to strap a person in by their arms and legs, and then weights were attached to the ends of these ropes. The person was raised to a certain level and then the ropes were released. This created a situation where the body would be stretched painfully, sometimes enough to produce death (see Figure 1). The aselli was accomplished as a person was brought to lay down on a trestle with sharp-edged rungs and secured with an iron band. Their feet would be elevated above their heads. The accused then had a small piece of linen forced into the gullet. Using a jar (jarra), water would be poured into the mouth and nose producing a state of semi-suffocation. The process would be done repeatedly. While doing that process, the cords binding the limbs would be tightened until it would seem the very veins would explode (Roth, 1964). The torture would not be stopped, but a break could be taken. The difference is that if the torture were stopped, it could not be started again according to church law. But, if the torture was only suspended, it could be resumed at a later time.

The tortures were used on old and young alike to get confessions and to learn of accomplices. In this way, the Spanish tried to ensure they would be pure. Once a confession was reached, if it was heinous enough, the perpetrator would be sentenced to death.

The sentence of death was carried out as the accused was thrown into a fire as an auto de fe (act of faith). The fire was reserved for those who would not admit their heresy, those who relapsed in their heresies, and to other dissenters. The guilty were burned because the church believed they (the church) should not be a direct party in the shedding of blood. To remain free of blood, the church "relaxed" or handed over the guilty to the secular arm. Once handed over, the church would recommend mercy with the qualifier that if the accused was guilty, they be punished by death. It was understood that the secular authorities would immediately condemn those with "relaxed" status to death (Roth, 1964). If the guilty were fortunate enough to die in the prisons instead, they and their families were still not safe. Their dead bodies, along with effigies of those that had escaped to other lands, would be taken along with the living and thrown into the fire. This allowed the lands of all of those people to be confiscated, if that had not already been done. There truly was no escape from the fanaticism of the Spanish Inquisition.

It has been suggested that this was an ethnic, as well as religious, purification. The difference between the Spanish Inquisition and the Papal Inquisition was that the Spanish Inquisition was turned over to secular authorities. The secular authorities were the ones who were in charge of the maintenance and perpetuation of the Inquisition.

It was therefore a primary instrument of Spanish absolutism. Moreover, its independent status enabled it to amass wealth, heaped up by repeated confiscations, and this in itself rendered it a force to be reckoned with in the affairs of the country (Roth, 1964, p. 73).

From the actions of the Spanish Inquisition, it is apparent it was an ethnic cleansing. The Spanish Inquisition and its actions caused 200,000 loyal, but Jewish, Spaniards to leave the country. Surely, the Spanish Inquisition was about more than just religious purity.

The crown gained in many ways due to the Spanish Inquisition. Ferdinand and later monarchs were able to use the guilty as rowers for their war ships. Also, besides increasing in wealth because of the Inquisition, the Spanish crown gained a certain amount of control over the Catholic church in Spain. Because Pope Sixtus gave the authority to the crown, the Catholic church lost some authority and control of Spain.

In summary, the Inquisition in Spain began in 1478 and officially ended in 1808. During that time, 323,362 people were burned and 17,659 were burned in effigy. It is one of the darkest periods in Spanish history. By far, the greatest number of cases tried were for Judaising (Roth, 1964). These were also the cases that were tried the most severely. There were other minorities, of course, that were persecuted, but the majority were Jews. The Inquisition definitely had racial overtones. Although, it can be said that Queen Isabella officially initiated the Spanish Inquisition for the purity of faith, nation, and people, this is probably not the case. The materialistic desires of the aristocracy certainly factor into the reasons for the perpetuation of the Inquisition.

The inquisition is like most other dark periods of history. It was primarily brought on because of prejudices and greed. When one people excel within a society and they make up the minority, they historically are labeled as scapegoats for the problems of the rest of society. The Renaissance period was obviously the same. It seems strange that in the history of man we still have not found a way to deal with our own petty jealousies.

Source: Jason L. Slade (August 6, 1996) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- References Johnson, Matthew & Dirksen, Nathaniel. (1996). The Spanish Inquisition's Effect on the Church. Overlake High School Summer Project, [http://.www.overlake.org/projects/inquisitor.html]. Machiavelli, Niccolo (translated by Henry C. Mansfield). (1985). The Prince. Chicago, Illinois: The University of Chicago Press. Plaidy, Jean. (1967). The Spanish Inquisition. New York: The Citadel Press. Roth, Cecil. (1964). The Spanish Inquisition. United States of America: W. W. Norton & Company, Inc.

The Spanish Inquisition is no more representative of modern day Catholicism, than are the some of the old quotes and claims that you have been posting about Masonry, indicative of modern day Masons.

You must have worked really long and hard on this silly thesis.

We condemn our priests' crimes. You celebrate yours. Humanum Genus - Encyclical on Freemasonry - Promulgated on April 20, 1884 - Pope Leo XIII 4. The Roman Pontiffs Our predecessors, in their incessant watchfulness over the safety of the Christian people, were prompt in detecting the presence and the purpose of this capital enemy immediately it sprang into the light instead of hiding as a dark conspiracy; and, moreover, they took occasion with true foresight to give, as it were on their guard, and not allow themselves to he caught by the devices and snares laid out to deceive them. 5. The first warning of the danger was given by Clement XII in the year l738, 3 and his constitution was confirmed and renewed by Benedict XIV. 4 Pius VII followed the same path; 5 and Leo XII, by his apostolic constitution, Quo Graviora, 6 put together the acts and decrees of former Pontiffs on this subject, and ratified and confirmed them forever. In the same sense spoke Pius VIII, 7 Gregory XVI, 8 and, many times over, Pius IX. 9 6. For as soon as the constitution and the spirit of the masonic sect were clearly discovered by manifest signs of its actions, by the investigation of its causes, by publication of its laws, and of its rites and commentaries, with the addition often of the personal testimony of those who were in the secret, this apostolic see denounced the sect of the Freemasons, and publicly declared its constitution, as contrary to law and right, to be pernicious no less to Christiandom than to the State; and it forbade any one to enter the society, under the penalties which the Church is wont to inflict upon exceptionally guilty persons. The sectaries, indignant at this, thinking to elude or to weaken the force of these decrees, partly by contempt of them, and partly by calumny, accused the sovereign Pontiffs who had passed them either of exceeding the bounds of moderation in their decrees or of decreeing what was not just. This was the manner in which they endeavored to elude the authority and the weight of the apostolic constitutions of Clement XII and Benedict XIV, as well as of Pius VII and Pius IX. 10 Yet, in the very society itself, there were to be found men who unwillingly acknowledged that the Roman Pontiffs had acted within their right, according to the Catholic doctrine and discipline. The Pontiffs received the same assent, and in strong terms, from many princes and heads of governments, who made it their business either to delate the masonic society to the apostolic see, or of their own accord by special enactments to brand it as pernicious, as, for example, in Holland, Austria, Switzerland, Spain, Bavaria, Savoy, and other parts of Italy. 7. But, what is of highest importance, the course of events has demonstrated the prudence of Our predecessors. For their provident and paternal solicitude had not always and every where the result desired; and this, either because of the simulation and cunning of some who were active agents in the mischief, or else of the thoughtless levity of the rest who ought, in their own interest, to have given to the matter their diligent attention. In consequence, the sect of Freemasons grew with a rapidity beyond conception in the course of a century and a half, until it came to be able, by means of fraud or of audacity, to gain such entrance into every rank of the State as to seem to be almost its ruling power. This swift and formidable advance has brought upon the Church, upon the power of princes, upon the public well-being, precisely that grievous harm which Our predecessors had long before foreseen. Such a condition has been reached that henceforth there will be grave reason to fear, not indeed for the Church -- for her foundation is much too firm to be overturned by the effort of men -- but for those States in which prevails the power, either of the sect of which we are speaking or of other sects not dissimilar which lend themselves to it as disciples and subordinates. 8. For these reasons We no sooner came to the helm of the Church than We clearly saw and felt it to be Our duty to use Our authority to the very utmost against so vast an evil. We have several times already, as occasion served, attacked certain chief points of teaching which showed in a special manner the perverse influence of Masonic opinions. Thus, in Our encyclical letter, Quod Apostolici Muneris, We endeavored to refute the monstrous doctrines of the socialists and communists; afterwards, in another beginning "Arcanum," We took pains to defend and explain the true and genuine idea of domestic life, of which marriage is the spring and origin; and again, in that which begins "Diuturnum," 11 We described the ideal of political government conformed to the principles of Christian wisdom, which is marvelously in harmony, on the one hand, with the natural order of things, and, in the other, with the well-being of both sovereign princes and of nations. It is now Our intention, following the example of Our predecessors, directly to treat of the masonic society itself, of its whole teaching, of its aims, and of its manner of thinking and acting, in order to bring more and more into the light its power for evil, and to do what We can to arrest the contagion of this fatal plague. 9. There are several organized bodies which, though differing in name, in ceremonial, in form and origin, are nevertheless so bound together by community of purpose and by the similarity of their main opinions, as to make in fact one thing with the sect of the Freemasons, which is a kind of center whence they all go forth, and whither they all return. Now, these no longer show a desire to remain concealed; for they hold their meetings in the daylight and before the public eye, and publish their own newspaper organs; and yet, when thoroughly understood, they are found still to retain the nature and the habits of secret societies. There are many things like mysteries which it is the fixed rule to hide with extreme care, not only from strangers, but from very many members, also; such as their secret and final designs, the names of the chief leaders, and certain secret and inner meetings, as well as their decisions, and the ways and means of carrying them out. This is, no doubt, the object of the manifold difference among the members as to right, office, and privilege, of the received distinction of orders and grades, and of that severe discipline which is maintained. Candidates are generally commanded to promise -- nay, with a special oath, to swear -- that they will never, to any person, at any time or in any way, make known the members, the passes, or the subjects discussed. Thus, with a fraudulent external appearance, and with a style of simulation which is always the same, the Freemasons, like the Manichees of old, strive, as far as possible, to conceal themselves, and to admit no witnesses but their own members. As a convenient manner of concealment, they assume the character of literary men and scholars associated for purposes of learning. They speak of their zeal for a more cultured refinement, and of their love for the poor; and they declare their one wish to be the amelioration of the condition of the masses, and to share with the largest possible number all the benefits of civil life. Were these purposes aimed at in real truth, they are by no means the whole of their object. Moreover, to be enrolled, it is necessary that the candidates promise and undertake to be thenceforward strictly obedient to their leaders and masters with the utmost submission and fidelity, and to be in readiness to do their bidding upon the slightest expression of their will; or, if disobedient, to submit to the direst penalties and death itself. As a fact, if any are judged to have betrayed the doings of the sect or to have resisted commands given, punishment is inflicted on them not infrequently, and with so much audacity and dexterity that the assassin very often escapes the detection and penalty of his crime. 10. But to simulate and wish to lie hid; to bind men like slaves in the very tightest bonds, and without giving any sufficient reason; to make use of men enslaved to the will of another for any arbitrary act; to arm men's right hands for bloodshed after securing impunity for the crime -- all this is an enormity from which nature recoils. Wherefore, reason and truth itself make it plain that the society of which we are speaking is in antagonism with justice and natural uprightness. And this becomes still plainer, inasmuch as other arguments, also, and those very manifest, prove that it is essentially opposed to natural virtue. For, no matter how great may be men's cleverness in concealing and their experience in lying, it is impossible to prevent the effects of any cause from showing, in some way, the intrinsic nature of the cause whence they come. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor a bad tree produce good fruit." 12 Now, the masonic sect produces fruits that are pernicious and of the bitterest savor. For, from what We have above most clearly shown, that which is their ultimate purpose forces itself into view -- namely, the utter overthrow of that whole religious and political order of the world which the Christian teaching has produced, and the substitution of a new state of things in accordance with their ideas, of which the foundations and laws shall be drawn from mere naturalism. 11. What We have said, and are about to say, must be understood of the sect of the Freemasons taken generically, and in so far as it comprises the associations kindred to it and confederated with it, but not of the individual members of them. There may be persons amongst these, and not a few who, although not free from the guilt of having entangled themselves in such associations, yet are neither themselves partners in their criminal acts nor aware of the ultimate object which they are endeavoring to attain. In the same way, some of the affiliated societies, perhaps, by no means approve of the extreme conclusions which they would, if consistent, embrace as necessarily following from their common principles, did not their very foulness strike them with horror. Some of these, again, are led by circumstances of times and places either to aim at smaller things than the others usually attempt or than they themselves would wish to attempt. They are not, however, for this reason, to be reckoned as alien to the masonic federation; for the masonic federation is to be judged not so much by the things which it has done, or brought to completion, as by the sum of its pronounced opinions. 20. Moreover, human nature was stained by original sin, and is therefore more disposed to vice than to virtue. For a virtuous life it is absolutely necessary to restrain the disorderly movements of the soul, and to make the passions obedient to reason. In this conflict human things must very often be despised, and the greatest labors and hardships must be undergone, in order that reason may always hold its sway. But the naturalists and Freemasons, having no faith in those things which we have learned by the revelation of God, deny that our first parents sinned, and consequently think that free will is not at all weakened and inclined to evil. 13 On the contrary, exaggerating rather the power and the excellence of nature, and placing therein alone the principle and rule of justice, they cannot even imagine that there is any need at all of a constant struggle and a perfect steadfastness to overcome the violence and rule of our passions. Wherefore we see that men are publicly tempted by the many allurements of pleasure; that there are journals and pamphlets with neither moderation nor shame; that stage-plays are remarkable for license; that designs for works of art are shamelessly sought in the laws of a so-called realism; that the contrivances of a soft and delicate life are most carefully devised; and that all the blandishments of pleasure are diligently sought out by which virtue may be lulled to sleep. Wickedly, also, but at the same time quite consistently, do those act who do away with the expectation of the joys of heaven, and bring down all happiness to the level of mortality, and, as it were, sink it in the earth. Of what We have said the following fact, astonishing not so much in itself as in its open expression, may serve as a confirmation. ***** For, since generally no one is accustomed to obey crafty and clever men so submissively as those whose soul is weakened and broken down by the domination of the passions, there have been in the sect of the Freemasons some who have plainly determined and proposed that, artfully and of set purpose, the multitude should be satiated with a boundless license of vice, as, when this had been done, it would easily come under their power and authority for any acts of daring. ***** 21. What refers to domestic life in the teaching of the naturalists is almost all contained in the following declarations: that marriage belongs to the genus of commercial contracts, which can rightly be revoked by the will of those who made them, and that the civil rulers of the State have power over the matrimonial bond; that in the education of youth nothing is to he taught in the matter of religion as of certain and fixed opinion; and each one must he left at liberty to follow, when he comes of age, whatever he may prefer. To these things the Freemasons fully assent; and not only assent, but have long endeavored to make them into a law and institution. For in many countries, and those nominally Catholic, it is enacted that no marriages shall be considered lawful except those contracted by the civil rite; in other places the law permits divorce; and in others every effort is used to make it lawful as soon as may be. Thus, the time is quickly coming when marriages will be turned into another kind of contract -- that is into changeable and uncertain unions which fancy may join together, and which the same when changed may disunite. With the greatest unanimity the sect of the Freemasons also endeavors to take to itself the education of youth. They think that they can easily mold to their opinions that soft and pliant age, and bend it whither they will; and that nothing can be more fitted than this to enable them to bring up the youth of the State after their own plan. Therefore, in the education and instruction of children they allow no share, either of teaching or of discipline, to the ministers of the Church; and in many places they have procured that the education of youth shall he exclusively in the hands of laymen, and that nothing which treats of the most important and most holy duties of men to God shall be introduced into the instructions on morals. 22. Then come their doctrines of politics, in which the naturalists lay down that all men have the same right, and are in every respect of equal and like condition; that each one is naturally free; that no one has the right to command another; that it is an act of violence to require men to obey any authority other than that which is obtained from themselves. According to this, therefore, all things belong to the free people; power is held by the command or permission of the people, so that, when the popular will changes, rulers may lawfully be deposed and the source of all rights and civil duties is either in the multitude or in the governing authority when this is constituted according to the latest doctrines. It is held also that the State should be without God; that in the various forms of religion there is no reason why one should have precedence of another; and that they are all to occupy the same place.

I was in a bit of a rush when I made my last post. Here are a few more quotes.

"Every Masonic lodge is a temple of religion and its teachings are instruction of religion."-Albert Pike

"Look at its ancient landmarks, its sublime ceremonies, its profound symbols and allegories-all inclucating religious observance, and teaching religious truth, and who can deny that it is eminently a religious institution?" "Masonry, then, is indeed a religious institution; and on this ground mainly, if not alone, should the religious Mason defend it."-Mackey

"Some attempt to avoid the issue by saying that Freemasonry is not a religion but is religious; seeming to believe that the substitution of an adjective for a noun makes a fundamental difference. It would be as sensible to say that man had no intellect but was intellectual or that he had no honor but was honorable. The oft repeated aphorims: "Freemasonry is not a religion, but is most emphatically religion's handmaid, " has been challenged as meaningless, which it seems to be."-Henry Wilson Coil

"That brings us to the real crux of the matter, the difference between a lodge and a church is one of degree and not of kind. Some think that, because it is not a strong or highly formalized or highly dogmatized religion such as the Roman Catholic Church wher it is difficult to tell whether the congregation is worshiping God, Christ, or the Virgin Mary, it can be no religion at all. But a church of Friends (Quakers) exhibits even less formality and ritual that a Masonic lodge. The fact that Freemasonry is a mild religion does not mean that it is no religion."-Coil

"Creeds arise, have their day and pass, but Masonry remains. It is built on the rock of truth, not the shifting sands of superstition."-Masonic writer Sir John Cockburn

Couple that with the writings of the Popes.

You've never heard of Albert G. Mackey?

I just did a search on my computer and came up with a truckload of hits on him.

I went to one Masonic site and saw that he has written many books on Freemasonry, including.

"Encyclopedia of Freemasonry A-L"

"Encyclopedia of Freemasonry M-Z"

And History of Freemasonry, Volumes 1, 2, 3,4,5,6,7.

The quotes I used were from "Encyclopedia of Freemasonry."

I've lost track of the players without my program.

Are you an anti-Masonic Catholic? Or...

Are you an anti-Catholic Fundamentalist? Or...

Are you an anti-Masonic and anti-Catholic Fundamentalist?

If I were as tuned into conspiracy theories as some who've dropped by on the thread, I'd believe that, in light of what I've learned of the referenced Mr. Chick, that the fundamentalist stirred this tempest up to sow public distrust between Masons and Catholics...both of which are enemies to him.

During that time, 323,362 people were burned

Truth ain't the hallmark of Freemasonry, that's for sure.

From the uncontested EXPERT on Pre 20th century and 20th century Democide, R.J. Rummel, Professor Emeritus of Political Science, University of Hawaii, author Freedom, Democracy, Peace; Power, Democide, and War, (not a Catholic)

The Spanish Inquisition established in 1480 by King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella and that was led from 1483 to 1498 by the Dominican monk de Torquemada may have burned to death as many as 10,220 heretics in total; ... A secretary of the inquisition says that no more than 4,000 were burned to death altogether. But in Seville alone this number of heretics may have been so killed.98 Perhaps a more realistic figure is that of the General Secretary of the Inquisition, who estimated that from 1480 to 1488, 8,800 people were killed by fire, and from 1480 to 1808 the victims may have totaled 31,912.

So you've conveniently overestimated the numbers by the power of ten.

Typical Freemason, when it comes to statements regarding Catholicism, don't believe a damn word they utter.

The Spanish Inquisition's Effect on the Church. Overlake High School Summer Project,

Thank you for using such esteemed sources for your "facts" on the Inquisition.

You guys have made complete asses of yourselves on this thread, and further tarnished the image of your Lodges. You should have quit while you were ahead, i.e., before your very first post to this thread.

You must have worked really long and hard

Even a Freemason as ignorant of history as you should know that this excellent encyclical on Freemasonry was penned by Pope Saint Leo XIII. I could not possibly claim authorship of such a fine piece of scholarship.

I'd believe that, in light of what I've learned of the referenced Mr. Chick, that the fundamentalist stirred this tempest up to sow public distrust between Masons and Catholics

Jack Chick is a Johnny-come-lately to the Christianity Vs Masonry debate.

Popes have condemned Freemasonry since its inception (its actual inception, not the mythical ones it likes to make up):

The action of the Church is summed up in the papal pronouncements against Freemasonry since 1738, the most important of which are:

Clement XII, Const. "In Eminenti", 28 April, 1738;
Benedict XIV, "Providas", 18 May, 1751;
Pius VII, "Ecclesiam", 13 September, 1821;
Leo XII, "Quo graviora", 13 March, 1825;
Pius VIII, Encycl. "Traditi", 21 May, 1829;
Gregory XVI, "Mirari", 15 August, 1832;
Pius IX, Encycl. "Qui pluribus", 9 November, 1846;
Pius IX, Alloc. "Quibus quantisque malis", 20 April, 1849;
Pius IX, Encycl. "Quanta cura", 8 December, 1864;
Pius IX, Alloc. "Multiplices inter", 25 September, 1865;
Pius IX, Const. "Apostolicæ Sedis", 12 October, 1869;
Pius IX, Encycl. "Etsi multa", 21 November, 1873;
Leo XIII, Encycl. "Humanum genus", 20 April, 1884;
Leo XIII, "Præclara", 20 June, 1894;
Leo XIII, "Annum ingressi", 18 March, 1902 (against Italian Freemasonry);
Leo XIII, Encycl. "Etsí nos", 15 February, 1882;
Leo XIII, "Ab Apostolici", 15 October, 1890.

These pontifical utterances from first to last are in complete accord, the latter reiterating the earlier with such developments as were called for by the growth of Freemasonry and other secret societies.

Clement XII accurately indicates the principal reasons why Masonic associations from the Catholic, Christian, moral, political, and social points of view, should be condemned. These reasons are:

The peculiar, "unsectarian" (in truth, anti-Catholic and anti-Christian) naturalistic character of Freemasonry, by which theoretically and practically it undermines the Catholic and Christian faith, first in its members and through them in the rest of society, creating religious indifferentism and contempt for orthodoxy and ecclesiastical authority.
The inscrutable secrecy and fallacious ever-changing disguise of the Masonic association and of its "work", by which "men of this sort break as thieves into the house and like foxes endeavour to root up the vineyard", "perverting the hearts of the simple", ruining their spiritual and temporal welfare.
The oaths of secrecy and of fidelity to Masonry and Masonic work, which cannot be justified in their scope, their object, or their form, and cannot, therefore, induce any obligation. The oaths are condemnable, because the scope and object of Masonry are "wicked" and condemnable, and the candidate in most cases is ignorant of the import or extent of the obligation which he takes upon himself. Moreover the ritualistic and doctrinal "secrets" which are the principal object of the obligation, according to the highest Masonic authorities, are either trifles or no longer exist. [212] In either case the oath is a condemnable abuse. Even the Masonic modes of recognition, which are represented as the principal and only essential "secret" of Masonry, are published in many printed books. Hence the real "secrets" of Masonry, if such there be, could only be political or anti-religious conspiracies like the plots of the Grand Lodges in Latin countries. But such secrets, condemned, at least theoretically, by Anglo-American Masons themselves, would render the oath or obligation only the more immoral and therefore null and void. Thus in every respect the Masonic oaths are not only sacrilegious but also an abuse contrary to public order which requires that solemn oaths and obligations as the principal means to maintain veracity and faithfulness in the State and in human society, should not be vilified or caricatured. In Masonry the oath is further degraded by its form which includes the most atrocious penalties, for the "violation of obligations" which do not even exist; a "violation" which, in truth may be and in many cases is an imperative duty.
The danger which such societies involve for the security and "tranquility of the State" and for "the spiritual health of souls", and consequently their incompatibility with civil and canonical law. For even admitting that some Masonic associations pursued for themselves no purposes contrary to religion and to public order, they would be nevertheless contrary to public order, because by their very existence as secret societies based on the Masonic principles, they encourage and promote the foundation of other really dangerous secret societies and render difficult, if not impossible, efficacious action of the civil and ecclesiastical authorities against them.

Of the other papal edicts only some characteristic utterances need be mentioned. Benedict XIV appeals more urgently to Catholic princes and civil powers to obtain their assistance in the struggle against Freemasonry. Pius VII condemns the secret society of the Carbonari which, if not an offshoot, is "certainly an imitation of the Masonic society" and, as such, already comprised in the condemnation issued against it. Leo XII deplores the fact, that the civil powers had not heeded the earlier papal decrees, and in consequence out of the old Masonic societies even more dangerous sects had sprung. Among them the "Universitarian" is mentioned as most pernicious. "It is to be deemed certain", says the pope, "that these secret societies are linked together by the bond of the same criminal purposes." Gregory XVI similarly declares that the calamities of the age were due principally to the conspiracy of secret societies, and like Leo XII, deplores the religious indifferentism and the false ideas of tolerance propagated by secret societies. Pius IX [213] characterizes Freemasonry as an insidious, fraudulent and perverse organization injurious both to religion and to society; and condemns anew "this Masonic and other similar societies, which differing only in appearance coalesce constantly and openly or secretly plot against the Church or lawful authority". Leo XIII (1884) says: "There are various sects, which although differing in name, rite, form, and origin, are nevertheless so united by community of purposes and by similarity of their main principles as to be really one with the Masonic sect, which is a kind of centre, whence they all proceed and whither they all return." The ultimate purpose of Freemasonry is "the overthrow of the whole religious, political, and social order based on Christian institutions and the establishment of a new state of things according to their own ideas and based in its principles and laws on pure Naturalism."

In view of these several reasons Catholics since 1738 are, under penalty of excommunication, incurred ipso facto, and reserved to the pope, strictly forbidden to enter or promote in any way Masonic societies. The law now in force [214] pronounces excommunication upon "those who enter Masonic or Carbonarian or other sects of the same kind, which, openly or secretly, plot against the Church or lawful authority and those who in any way favour these sects or do not denounce their leaders and principal members." Under this head mention must also be made of the "Practical Instruction of the Congregation of the Inquisition, 7 May, 1884 [215] and of the decrees of the Provincial Councils of Baltimore, 1840; New Orleans, 1856; Quebec, 1851, 1868; of the first Council of the English Colonies, 1854; and particularly of the Plenary Councils of Baltimore, 1866 and 1884. [216] These documents refer mainly to the application of the papal decrees according to the peculiar condition of the respective ecclesiastical provinces. The Third Council of Baltimore, n. 254 sq., states the method of ascertaining whether or not a society is to be regarded as comprised in the papal condemnation of Freemasonry. It reserves the final decision thereon to a commission consisting of all the archbishops of the ecclesiastical provinces represented in the council, and, if they cannot reach a unanimous conclusion, refers to the Holy See.

These papal edicts and censures against Freemasonry have often been the occasion of erroneous and unjust charges. The excommunication was interpreted as an "imprecation" that cursed all Freemasons and doomed them to perdition. In truth an excommunication is simply an ecclesiastical penalty, by which members of the Church should be deterred from acts that are criminal according to ecclesiastical law. The pope and the bishops, therefore, as faithful pastors of Christ's flock, cannot but condemn Freemasonry. They would betray, as Clement XII stated, their most sacred duties, if they did not oppose with all their power the insidious propagation and activity of such societies in Catholic countries or with respect to Catholics in mixed and Protestant countries. Freemasonry systematically promotes religious indifferentism and undermines true, i.e., orthodox Christian and Catholic Faith and life. Freemasonry is essentially Naturalism and hence opposed to all supernaturalism. As to some particular charges of Leo XIII (1884) challenged by Freemasons, e.g., the atheistical character of Freemasonry, it must be remarked, that the pope considers the activity of Masonic and similar societies as a whole, applying to it the term which designates the most of these societies and among the Masonic groups those, which push the so-called "anti-clerical", in reality irreligious and revolutionary, principles of Freemasonry logically to their ultimate consequences and thus, in truth, are, as it were, the advanced outposts and standard-bearers of the whole immense anti-Catholic and anti-papal army in the world-wide spiritual warfare of our age. In this sense also the pope, in accordance with a fundamental biblical and evangelical view developed by St. Augustine in his "De civitate Dei", like the Masonic poet Carducci in his "Hymn to Satan", considers Satan as the supreme spiritual chief of this hostile army. Thus Leo XIII (1884) expressly states:

What we say, must be understood of the Masonic sect in the universal acceptation of the term, as it comprises all kindred and associated societies, but not of their single members. There may be persons amongst these, and not a few, who, although not free from the guilt of having entangled themselves in such associations, yet are neither themselves partners in their criminal acts nor aware of the ultimate object which these associations are endeavouring to attain. Similarly some of the several bodies of the association may perhaps by no means approve of certain extreme conclusions, which they would consistently accept as necessarily following from the general principles common to all, were they not deterred by the vicious character of the conclusions.

"The Masonic federation is to be judged not so much by the acts and things it has accomplished, as by the whole of its principles and purposes."

I never said Masons are bad people - in fact, many are good men. My points have been directed to those who think that we are saved by works....or those who refuse to recognize the syncretism of Masonry as it relates to their requirement of 'belief in God.'

I never said Masons are bad people - in fact, many are good men. My points have been directed to those who think that we are saved by works.But don't you think giving money to a church is just works? It is a commmandment - but so are good works.

...or those who refuse to recognize the syncretism of Masonry as it relates to their requirement of 'belief in God.'

No exactly sure what that means - but to become a Mason you must confess your trust lies in God, and your salvation through his son. How does that not hold any thing negative for religion.

As I said, you uncle may have or seemed to have shortchanged his church. But I feel very comfortable in saying that the Masonic lodges in many cities and towns do much more for humankind than do many of the churches who build huge buildings and who hire their beautifully coiffed, clad leaders.

One, however, doesn't preclude the other. It is a personal matter. Some think that giving your tithes or more to the church is all the works you need. The love to go to church in that beautiful building and it's nice to look at folks up front who look nice and dress nice and sometimes those churches have dinners, parties trips, etc. and that is confused with doing God's work.

See #90 - in their own words.

Well, since I was discussing this with my husband and he said he put his hand on the Holy Bible when he answered those questions - I will take his word for it. Since there is only one God and one Holy Bible - that settles it for me. Perhaps they don't have to swear the same oath, I don't know - can only speak for those I know.

But we know all people who attend churches today are serving God don't we? Definitely not!!!

No it was the Master Mason that was the devotee of Chick, I just referenced the photocopied letter, on Mason Chapter letterhead, with his signature and seal.

Now if a 33 degree Mason, the head of the Illinois Chapter is not a good enough Mason to reference, can you point me to a 34th degree?

There is none so blind as those who refuse to see.

So I am a false prophet because I pointed out the obvious? Kindly show me how I insulted a Charity.

If I pointed out that Clintoon diddling with the kids in the oval office was, er "is", sex, would that be false prophecy too?

Uh, read your own books. In my book Lucifer is Satan.

I am a lying fool?

No I am a posting, with references.

A fool believes something without references, a liar has no references but his worthless word.

I am not a liar or a fool. You are a 32 degree mason and your own books show you as a liar. As for fool, well, while being evil is foolish, I have met some pretty smart, evil men. Not sure you are a fool, just a lousy liar.