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French Had Believed Iraq Victory Possible
The Moscow Times ^ | April 17,2003 | Pavel Felgenhauer

Posted on 04/20/2003 12:42:05 PM PDT by American Jingo

French Believed Iraq Victory Possible

The Moscow Times runs a column by Pavel Felgenhauer about Ramjaz, a group of anonymous, former Russian intelligence operatives who briefly filed stories on the Iraqi war. Apparently, like others, Ramjaz proved to be unduly optimistic about Iraqi military prospects. Felgenhauer notes in passing: This week, with the fray over, another official connected to the intelligence services (not retired) told me: "Our leadership never had any illusions about an ultimate American victory. It was the French that genuinely believed a miracle Saddam victory was possible and scolded us for being 'fatalistic.'

(Excerpt) Read more at themoscowtimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: france; iraq; iraqifreedom; russia; warlist; weaselevil; weasels
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The French believed that an Iraqi military victory over the US was possible? Truffles hallucinogenic? Who knew?
1 posted on 04/20/2003 12:42:05 PM PDT by American Jingo
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To: American Jingo; *war_list; W.O.T.; Dog Gone; Grampa Dave; blam; Sabertooth; NormsRevenge; Gritty; ..
The French, our NATO partners?

OFFICIAL BUMP(TOPIC)LIST

2 posted on 04/20/2003 12:45:36 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach (Where is Saddam? and where is Tom Daschle?)
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To: American Jingo
Their total lack of military ability ALWAYS leads them to the incorrect conclusion.

They also fired on US Troops enroute to get Hitler.

This was prior to becoming Europe’s Middle Eastern center as a Muslin Nation.

They were always so pissed at French loosing out to the English language.

Now it and their culture have been lost to the Arabic languages.
3 posted on 04/20/2003 12:47:59 PM PDT by Kay Soze (For every 100 Osamas created in the fight on terrorism - we shall simply elect one more "W")
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To: Kay Soze
french assault weapons for sale, never used but dropped once...
4 posted on 04/20/2003 12:51:32 PM PDT by Bill Davis FR
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To: American Jingo
I believe these are the reports the article is referring to.

Interesting they stopped at about the time their inaccuracy became glaring.

People have a tendancy to believe bad news, and consider good news to be propaganda. In the case of our war in Iraq, the good news was all accurate and the bad news was all lies. I only have to cite Robert Fisk to remind you of this point. But oh, what colourful reports he wrote! What a crackling feel of blood in the air, of eager Iraqis steeling for a fight!

Perhaps they were all wrong because they were all having fun. I know that's a funny thing to say about a war. But the problem is that I understand something people hate to admit: War is great entertainment. If you survive it, that is. For a few brief moments Robert Fisk felt he was the most important person in the world. He should lose his job over it, but he should have lost his job over in Afghanistan for similarly inaccurate reports. My bet is that he didn't lose his job because people loved to read his stuff.

Even when it was all wrong.

D

5 posted on 04/20/2003 12:57:08 PM PDT by daviddennis (Visit amazing.com for protest accounts, video & more!)
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To: American Jingo
There are ebbs and flows in civilization(s). There always have been and always will be...until this vale of tears is consumed by a dying sun.

There is always an element of risk when you go to war. Think about it...war is simply the breakdown of any semblence of humanity. The only part of war that any longer resembles humanity is the restraint that the warriors bring to the show. If one group or the next elects to check their humanity at the door, at least for the moment, whom do you go to see about it?

That said, these days the US is at the top of the heap when it comes to war making ability. Face it, you have in many respects the same fighters...or their close relatives in Afghanistan that drove out the Soviets just a decade or so ago. When the US decided that 9-11 was about enough, it took about 3 weeks to rout through that "quagmire." Think about it. Three weeks. In terrain that favored the defenders like no other terrain in the world.

Same thing in Iraq. The Iraqi had and have no chance. It might be interesting some time to have a philosophical historian wax on about how lucky the world is to have "absolute power" vested in such a benign "empire." Or, as Secretary Powell once so eloquently put it, "Everyone hates the US until you NEED a cop, then who are you going to call?"

Some of the technology we saw in Iraq is as far advanced from Gulf War I as that of Gulf War I was from WWII. And, it seems to me we are on the precipice of things that will dwarf anthing we saw in the last month.

Anyone that thought the Hussein really had a chance in that war...well, I really want some of that rope they were smoking. It must be potent. It's still a horribly dangersous world. I hope the boys that make the decisions hereabouts continue to recognize how fast things change and how serious the need to stay on the cutting edge of what it takes to win. I also hope we can still keep turning out the best of the best in terms of people to fill the necessary billets.

6 posted on 04/20/2003 1:00:58 PM PDT by stevem
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To: American Jingo
Welcome to FR!
7 posted on 04/20/2003 1:01:38 PM PDT by anniegetyourgun
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach
France isnt in NATO, I dont think it ever was.
8 posted on 04/20/2003 1:01:56 PM PDT by Husker24
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To: American Jingo
To show how bad the reports were, check out this excerpt from a report published in Russian in April 6 and then translated to be on the web page April 9: [HOWL ALERT]

All the claims made by aviation commander of the coalition, general Michael Mosley, about ??Iraqi army, as an organized structure consisting of large units, exists no longer?? are contrary to fact and, according to analytics, are probably connected with severe pressure put on the military command by American financial groups that desperately needed good news from the US-Iraqi front by the end of the financial week. In fact, the Republican Guards defending Baghdad have not lost even 5% of their numerical strength and military equipment. Most of those losses were due to bombardments and not land combats. The total losses of Iraqi army since the beginning of the war have not exceeded 5-8% of their defensive potential. This means the main battles are still to be seen.
Looks like they actually believed Baghdad Bob.

D

9 posted on 04/20/2003 1:03:47 PM PDT by daviddennis (Visit amazing.com for protest accounts, video & more!)
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To: American Jingo

10 posted on 04/20/2003 1:04:56 PM PDT by Petronski (I'm not always cranky.)
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To: Husker24
France is part of NATO, but departed from military command coordination in, uh, maybe 1966. Re-initiated some level of military cooperation in 1988, but never returned to the full membership level.
11 posted on 04/20/2003 1:06:41 PM PDT by Petronski (I'm not always cranky.)
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To: American Jingo
What courage it must take to spout such obvious pockytwaddle where other people can actually hear it.
12 posted on 04/20/2003 1:06:46 PM PDT by firebrand
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To: American Jingo
Proving, once again, that "delusional" is a French word.
13 posted on 04/20/2003 1:23:25 PM PDT by Cedric
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To: American Jingo
great line
14 posted on 04/20/2003 1:24:43 PM PDT by The Wizard (Saddamocrats are enemies of America)
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To: daviddennis
People have a tendancy to believe bad news, and consider good news to be propaganda.
People are afraid to ignore bad news and are afraid to accept good news uncritically.

That implies that the easiest way to grab people's attention is with a negative headline which people will fear to ignore. The whole phenomonon of "bias in the media" pretty much boils down to the institutionalization of that skewed perspective among journalists. Hey, it works--the journalists who employ that principle survive commercially.

Which explains why journalism leaves a niche wide open for commentary which is consistently more accurate than "The News." Any commentary which is not negative and superficial--ie, not anticonservative--will almost inevitably have a better track record than herd-mentality "pure journalism." Thus, talk radio. Thus, Fox News.


15 posted on 04/20/2003 1:26:51 PM PDT by conservatism_IS_compassion
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To: American Jingo
Remember ... these people were using Mogadishu as a guide to our military strength.

In fact, I think the liberals were too - and this may account for their not being willing to go to war - because they were sure we would be defeated. Which proves how little they pay attention to the military.
16 posted on 04/20/2003 1:42:17 PM PDT by CyberAnt ( America - You Are The Greatest!!)
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To: daviddennis
"People have a tendancy to believe bad news, and consider good news to be propaganda. In the case of our war in Iraq, the good news was all accurate and the bad news was all lies."

We have been well-trained by our defeatist ABC/CNN/NYTimes media. "Baghdad Bob" the liarwas never given as tough a time as our own excellent Genl Brooks.
17 posted on 04/20/2003 1:49:39 PM PDT by WOSG (All Hail The Free Republic of Iraq! God Bless our Troops!)
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To: American Jingo
You know, these people always try to present themselves as very sophisticated and bright. I think it is a reaction formation, to use a psychological term, to their understanding that, in fact, they are as dumb as a box of rocks. I'm series here. I think these people are truly stupid and have a certain part of the world buffaloed into thinking they are intelligent.
18 posted on 04/20/2003 1:53:59 PM PDT by johniegrad
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To: Kay Soze
"They also fired on US Troops enroute to get Hitler."

That's true, they fought for a week or two and inflicted several thousand combat losses on us and the Brits. More damning in my opinion was their reaction to the German descent on Tunisia immediately afterward.

We came in assault waves off landing craft with naval gunfire support and all the trimmings - and they fought. The Germans flew in on unarmed transport planes, seized the airfields when they arrived, flew in more men, grabbed ports, crossed in overloaded barges - and the French sat silent, did nothing, turned over arms, returned to barracks.

Free French came over to our side later, and several divisions eventually fought for us, that we armed. But we spent months fighting for Tunisia because the French garrisons there let the Germans in without firing a shot. If they hadn't, Rommel's force (still far to the east, running from the Brits at that point) would never have made it back to Tunisia. We'd have been there first.

One of the unsung sellouts of WW II...

19 posted on 04/20/2003 2:02:11 PM PDT by JasonC
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To: JasonC
All this French history will soon become irrevelant, as France becomes an Arab country -- one with 350 nuclear weapons.

20 posted on 04/20/2003 2:20:40 PM PDT by Grand Old Partisan (You can read about my history of the GOP at www.republicanbasics.com)
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