Officer exonerated in theater gun incident

WTNH ^ | 4/17/2003 | AP

[always vigilant]

(Hartford-AP Apr. 17, 2003 11:35 AM)_ An off-duty state Capitol police officer has been exonerated in a gun incident at the Bushnell Center.

An investigation began in February after Officer Paul Warren's personal gun went off accidentally inside the crowded theater.

The incident occurred during intermission of "The Tale of the Allergist's Wife" starring Valerie Harper.

The gun, a .380-caliber Browning automatic handgun was in his shoulder holster when it went off as he and his wife were returning to their seats at the end of intermission.

Both Hartford police and state Capitol police could not determine why the gun went off and found no negligence on Warren's part.

They also determined he did not violate any laws or department policy.

[TEXASPROUD]

The Browning .380 is a traditional double action semi-automatic. Not only was a shell chambered but the hammer had to have been cocked at the same time. If the safety had been employed it would have automatically lowered the hammer onto a hammer block.There was definitely some kind of negligence involved here.
Carrying in condition 1 is very common in Texas. Individuals such as myself, squantos, and others have carried our Colt .45's and Browning P-35 9mm for years without a negligent discharge. A chambered round, cocked and locked will only go off if you take off the safety and pull the trigger. The Browning had to have something apply pressure to the trigger and the safety was not engaged. For individuals that absolutely don't like the idea of cocked and locked, you now have the Glock available to you. The Israeli's like condition two as well, by the way, but it will always be different strokes for different folks. Revolver, single action semi-auto, traditional double action semi-auto, safe-action, it doesn't make any difference to me, the gun is prepared for immediate action.

[TexasCowboy]

"The problem is you don't know if a situation is dangerous until the situation is over. If people (smart people, that is) knew they were going into a situation of 'present danger', THEY WOULDN'T GO INTO IT!!! That's what firearms and martial arts training teaches you."

Thank you, flashbunny.
That puts this into proper perspective.
If you're not ready to use your firearm, leave it at home!
If you are ready to use it, use it as a last resort!
In CCP classes it's taught that your best defense in any dangerous situation is your feet..........running!
But always have that back-up ready with a round in the chamber in case your feet just aren't fast enough.

[MineralMan]

"Do you really know what you're talking about? The time it takes to chamber the round is enough time for something significant to happen. I would always have one chambered.(IMHO)"

Not really. Drawing from a shoulder holster, I can chamber a round in that Browning in the same time I can bring it into a position where I can fire it with any accuracy. It's a smooth, one-step action. It does require two hands, of course, but would not slow me down a bit.

Since I carry with no round in the chamber, I have practiced this hundreds of times. Now, if you're talking about dragging your gun out and snap-firing it without proper aiming, I suppose you're right. I would never do that. If I must fire, I'm going to aim well. I might only get one shot.

So, there's really no advantage, except in the situation where someone's holding my other arm. Try it.

[flashbunny]

"I have my personal rules for carrying, and I follow them. You have different rules. That is why you are not allowed armed into my place of business."

You're making the mistake of asuming I'd actually patronize a business owned by someone with such a 'guns for me but not for thee' attitude that you've shown on countless threads in the past.

since you feel that insisting someone at least sound like they know what they are talking about is 'avoiding the issues', let's get to the real one:

The problem isn't that this officer had a round chambered. Millions of people walk around with a round chambered every day. His problem was not having a holster that either retained is weapon properly, or a holster that did not cover the trigger. That's it. Either he or something (a pen in his pocket, etc) made contact with a trigger that became exposed and a round discharged.

[A2J]

Why was a round chambered in an automatic?

The question is: "Why is it strange to have a round chambered in a police officer's weapon?" It takes precious seconds that one can't afford to chamber a round when confronted by a "bad guy."

While I don't know what type of holster, if any, the officer had, it is conceivable that the weapon was "cocked and locked," making it more susceptible to an accidental firing.

[MineralMan]

"You're making the mistake of asuming I'd actually patronize a business owned by someone with such a 'guns for me but not for thee' attitude that you've shown on countless threads in the past.
"

That's cool with me. You're more than welcome not to visit my place of business. My business; My rules. Your business; Your rules.

A lot of people in the business I'm in go further than I do. They have entry halls with double doors. To get in, you have to go through one door, pass a metal detector, then get buzzed in through the second one. Set off the detector, and you don't get in at all. One guy I know wouldn't buzz you in unless he knew you personally anyhow.

I don't have a airlock entry way. I don't go that far.

[FreedomPoster]

>>Do you really know what you're talking about?

I think he has amply demonstrated his answer. ;-)

[A2J]

Does basic gun safety in a crowed theater mean anything to you?

Do you have any idea how many of those in a "crowded theater" are packing heat and yet with no incidents?

You take one rare instance of a potential accidental firing and you want to condemn the ten of thousands of cops who are in crowded situations all the time with a chambered round?

Get over your hatred for cops. Apparently, you've had a few run-ins with the Law.

[A2J]

Nothing like blowing your wife's brains out to remind you that guns are dangerous.

Ok, are you Sarah Brady?

[A2J]

The Glock 26 I carried kind of made me nervous as the safety was on the trigger.

With all due respect, that's the best place for a safety.

Glock rocks.

[Hodar]

It takes precious seconds that one can't afford to chamber a round when confronted by a "bad guy."

It takes significantly more than 2 seconds to decide if:

1) Lethal force is required
2) I will offer lethal force

During that time, one can both chamber a round, and present the weapon. My training came as a child from the NRA. We were taught NEVER to carry a loaded gun, until we were ready to shoot. That meant, the bolt open in a rifle, and the barrel exposed in a shotgun (or breach open in a pump shotgun). That way, you simply couldn't misfire, as the gun was rendered into a club. I see no compelling reason why this thought process should be any different with a pistol.

[A2J]

It does require two hands, of course, but would not slow me down a bit.

On the street where it counts, you'd be dead meat.

[Eaker]

"You have a fixation on dropped weapons. Quit dropping them and get some training."

I assume the police officer involved in this incident had received training. That seems a valid assumption. His training did not prevent this negligent discharge, which endangered folks in this theater.

Police are some of the least trained people carrying guns around.

You can argue your point about concealed carry with a loaded chamber all you like…..snip….

I said carry the way you train. I never advocated one way or the other.

The point is that, despite training, this stupid cop discharged his firearm in a crowded theater. Only blind luck prevented an injury or death. Had the chamber of his Browning been empty, the firearm could not have discharged.

I'm quite sure he "accidentally" left the safety off on the weapon. I'm sure he "accidentally" triggered it in his shoulder holster.

Wrong. He only needed to make an additional mistake. I would not put that past this guy.

Do I trust you with a semi-auto with a round in the chamber? I do not. I do not know you. I do not know your skills or training. To me, you are just a stranger with a firearm. I trust nobody with a loaded firearm until I know their intentions.

I don’t care about your opinion. If you are in Texas, or a state with a reciprocity agreement with Texas then it is none of your business and you will never know that I have a gun.

Personally, I would never carry a semi-auto pistol with a round chambered unless I was going into a situation of present danger. Your opinion may vary, but that's my rule.

My training tells me to stay out of dangerous situations. If the situation is brought to me then I am ready.

This theater presented no risk to this idiotic officer.

Please send me the winning lottery numbers for this Saturday night.

I never know whether an armed person is well-trained or not. I do not assume that they are. Armed people are not allowed in my place of business, and that includes cops who are there without invitation or a warrant.

Partial credit. You will never know that I am armed and I will enter your business armed unless you have posted the proper notice as required by law. If you post a (in Texas) 30.06, then I will go down the street and shop somewhere that law-abiding citizens are welcome.

[MineralMan]

"I see no compelling reason why this thought process should be any different with a pistol."

Well, you see, the guys in this thread who always carry with a round chambered, are always afraid someone's there ready to attack them. Could be anyone. Could be you, or me, or the guy in the car driving by. Anyone.

There's a name for that sort of thing.

[A2J]

A lot of people in the business I'm in

You're either in the pawn shop business, jewelry business, or drug pushing.

Which is it?

[Hodar]

Get over your hatred for cops. Apparently, you've had a few run-ins with the Law.

Stupidity should be painful. So, take some asprin. You know absolutely nothing about me. I have never had an unpleasant experience with cops. However, I do see a lot of potential problems with this type of 'training'. Stupid people ignore warning signs and have 'accidents'. Smart people realize the hazards, and prevent accidents. There is a major difference.

[Atlas Sneezed]

"And people who handle guns like I do, NEVER have to explain an accidental death, accidental discharge or have a gun get dropped and kill an innocent."

The same could be said for those who are denied the right to own or carry guns, which is what the gun-grabbing tyrants are all about.

Are you hostile to gun rights, or just incapable of conceiving that a cop could do something stupid and dangerous?

[MineralMan]

"You're either in the pawn shop business, jewelry business, or drug pushing.

"

None of those three. There's a lot you don't know, apparently. You've never been in a business like mine, and from the sound of it, you won't ever be, either. No loss.

[Eaker]

My training came as a child from the NRA.

Now that you are "all-growed-up" maybe you are ready for some "big-boy" training.

Training kids and training rough men is two different things.

[Atlas Sneezed]

"An automatic pistol with an unchambered shell is safe, it is a club. It takes only a moment to chamber."

Can you offer the support of one of the multitude of firearms experts who have published their advice on the subject, or are you just making this up?