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Beating down a woman: Vox Day on martial arts and the myth of the American Amazon
WorldNetDaily.com ^
| Tuesday, April 15, 2003
| Vox Day
Posted on 04/15/2003 12:10:12 AM PDT by JohnHuang2
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To: demosthenes the elder
Barstool blow-hardism.
To assert that women are more naturally gifted with firearms is to engage in barstool blow-hardism, a patronizing attempt to win female admiration for your barstool "insight." I don't care if you've based your "insight" on having taught 10,000 men and women to shoot. Unless you methodically, carefully, and objectively documented each instance, your opinion is largely worthless--driven and filtered more by emotional considerations, not factual ones.
Until and unless you produce an objective study proving otherwise, the most sound assertion to make is that there is no difference between the marksmanship of men and women firing a particular caliber at a firing range (or in combat; the environment is important). This is a sound inference because good shooting technique is not so dependent on brawn and upper-body strength.
Particular women can be phenomenal shots. I have known a few. But I have known far more men who are phenomenal shots. Does this warrant an inference that men are naturally more gifted than women as marksmen? No, and I wouldn't try to make that claim either.
To: Bon mots
Right on. Women watch that nonsense like "Charlie's Angels" and even Matrix has women beating on men. This is bad. The first time a woman tries that stuff, she's going to get really slammed, really hard. Twenty years ago, I had a female acquaintence with testosterone poisoning (She worked out alot in a Judo dojo, and thought she was hot stuff). She told me at one point that she would kick my butt (I'm 6'4, was 180 lbs at the time). I had decided that if she, as a martial-arts trained person, threw the first punch, I was going to respond exactly the same as I would to a guy initiating a fight. It would not have been pretty for her.
Martial arts builds confidence. The problem comes when it builds EXCESSIVE confidence
42
posted on
04/15/2003 6:51:56 AM PDT
by
SauronOfMordor
(Heavily armed, easily bored, and off my medication)
To: Kevin Curry
"Even in the best and most peacefully civilized countries many occasions arise when a woman versed in the knowledge and use of firearms may find that information and skill of great importance."
- Annie Oakley, Oct. 1919
To: Rifleman
The empty hand martial arts are not the answer to the self defense needs of anyone who cannot spend several hours a week at practice or anyone not young, healthy and agile. They are far from useless, but a handgun is enormously more effective for most. A combination of martial arts and weapons training is optimum. Martial arts will help you handle the first 3 seconds of an attack, so you can establish enough distance to GET TO your gun. It's also good for young people who are not old enough for a carry permit
44
posted on
04/15/2003 6:54:30 AM PDT
by
SauronOfMordor
(Heavily armed, easily bored, and off my medication)
To: SauronOfMordor
Good point. Also, being in the military( and/or learning self defense), is the best way to change someones "mindset" - from being "against" guns and fighting, to seeking all means of defense. I knew a small petite petty blonde woman, who, after being in the air force and shooting an m-16, now carries a .38 revolver as a civilian, and is now totally against gun control.
The best reason for women to learn karate or judo, is not to actually defeat a man, but to change her will to want to defeat a man any way she can.
To: Kevin Curry
Actually, you foul-tempered arrogant buffoon, simple mechanics supports the basic supposition that women SHOULD be better pistol shots than men.
1. Lower, wider center of mass = better, more stable weapon platform
2. Smaller blood vessels and lower distal extremety blood pressure = less fluctuation in the hands
Since almost all side-arms are well within the weight tolerance of the overwhelming majority of women, upper body strength does not become a factor, so the principle male advantage is meaningless.
Moreover, the psychologies of the two beasties are very different.
Many men get confused, thinking the gun has some strange relation to their genitals, and as a result do not listen as well to the range instructor, do not take as much care in lining up each shot, etc... Women do not usually have this problem.
Since my experience backs up the mechanical supposition (and, yes, loudmouth blackguard, I HAVE kept accurate records on this for the last 10 years, since becoming acutely aware of the phenomenon) and I have been told by every single range manager I have asked (over 30 such) that their experience closely parallels my own, I will very comfortably consider your opinion to be as worthwhile as the 3-day-old unflushed contents of a bar toilet.
46
posted on
04/15/2003 7:02:09 AM PDT
by
demosthenes the elder
(If *I* can afford $5/month to support FR: SO CAN YOU)
To: Rubber_Duckie_27
Why didn't the women collectively ask your sensei to "have a little talk" with Mr. Abuse? I know our sensei wouldn't stand for any such nonsense. Taking out your frustrations on uke is contrary to the teachings and the spirit of aikido.
But you're right, there's really no comparison in physical strength between women and men in martial arts. I don't train with the "big guys", I'm very happy in the novice group at the far back left hand side of the mat! My husband, on the other hand, just eats that stuff up.
I prefer to place my trust in the dependable products of the Colt Firearm Manufacturing Company.
47
posted on
04/15/2003 7:05:13 AM PDT
by
AnAmericanMother
(. . . there is nothing new under the sun.)
To: waterstraat
I agree that women probably would not qualify to be a navy seal, or a delta force member, but there is no reason to keep them out of the regular army, navy, marines, or airforce. Women may do OK in slots that never involve physical strength, but that's not front-line combat. She might not have to go hand-to-hand too often (but it does still happen), but she WILL need to be strong enough to carry 60-80 pounds on her back for miles, moving quickly. She might be strong enough to pull a trigger, but not in good enough shape to run through alleyways, pulling herself up 8-foot back walls, then running to the top of an 8 story building in order to get into position FIRST.
48
posted on
04/15/2003 7:05:39 AM PDT
by
SauronOfMordor
(Heavily armed, easily bored, and off my medication)
To: JohnHuang2
Extrapolating MA school practice to modern combat is a bit of a stretch...
... but so is extrapolating a day at the range.
There are many viable roles for women in a sensible military, if you first toss out the "everyone must be exactly equal" PC nonsense and work within reality.
For instance, I don't see one physical reason a woman can't be an effective combat pilot; and this last furball had some if memory serves, including some A-10 pilots.
49
posted on
04/15/2003 7:22:58 AM PDT
by
No.6
To: demosthenes the elder
Thank you, Socialism. What a criminal waste of an amazing talent.Absolutely. That's why we have to keep working hard to make sure the same thing doesn't happen here.
With so many socialist demonrats in place in our government, it's a very real threat!
50
posted on
04/15/2003 7:24:20 AM PDT
by
dansangel
(America - love it, support it, or LEAVE IT!)
To: demosthenes the elder
It might even be that you gave your women students more particularized attention than you gave to the men. The patronizing soul will often do this subconciously. I have seen women newbies at a firing range surrounded by men only too anxious to give them particularized instruction and quick praise--particularly if the woman is attractive. Admittedly, my evidence is anecdotal, but it comports with what I know about barstool blowhardism.
And in any event, the combat firefight enviroment is a special environment quite unlike a sedate shooting-range-with-benchrests environment. Before any claim about women naturally being better marksmen would hold water on this thread, you would have to account and control for the special environment of combat firefights. Critical factors and controls include type of weapon and deployment, e.g., holding an M16 and laying down covering fire from the prone position is one thing, lugging a 24 pound M240G medium machinegun in a sprint across 500 yards of open field and firing effectively once you get there is quite another.
To: AnAmericanMother
But you're right, there's really no comparison in physical strength between women and men in martial arts. I don't train with the "big guys", I'm very happy in the novice group at the far back left hand side of the mat! My husband, on the other hand, just eats that stuff up. I prefer to place my trust in the dependable products of the Colt Firearm Manufacturing Company. The best way to get a woman to change her mindset on guns, and to want to start carrying one, is to have her go on the mat with the "big guys". She is already in the class, she is already determined to do something about self-defense, etc. Quit pulling your punches with women enrolled in those self defense classes. Dont give them a false sense of security by being easy on them. Once she sees the futility of relying solely on karate, she will opt for the gun. I took a self defense class, and my black belt instructor told me that if I was more than a step or 2 away, I could defeat him with my gun.
To: waterstraat
Oh, I have my share of bumps and bruises. (The time that nage somehow managed to get a finger into my mouth and lacerate my gum comes to mind . . . Greek chorus: "Don't Bleed On the Mat!" :-D )
That's why I would prefer to ventilate any assailant from a relatively safe distance with the 1911A1. I have carried either a Govt model or Officers model stainless for 20+ years - although I recently acquired the baby Sig P245, which looks promising.
53
posted on
04/15/2003 8:04:27 AM PDT
by
AnAmericanMother
(. . . there is nothing new under the sun.)
To: Kevin Curry
This is just based on personal experience but I think Men and Women are about equal in shooting ability, at least with milder recoiling guns.
My youngest daughter never showed much interest in shooting despite my best efforts. One day I did get her to do a lot of shooting with a daisy target air rifle. I can't recall the model but it was the one which cocked with a long under barrel lever which was made of some synthetic material. Before the end of the day, I had her shooting very well, better than most people who have shot all their lives.
On the other hand, I taught skeet shooting at a Southern University for two years. The boys were generally better shots. Some of the girls did just fine but some really were bothered by the recoil. We almost always had a Japanese girl in most classes. Some of them were really petite and I noticed the recoil really did bother them. (the school guns were 870 Remingtons). I tried my best to help them, such as keeping the butt firmly against the shoulder, but there was not a lot I could do.
I will share one personal experience which really surprised me. One day a bunch of my nieces and nephews asked me to take them down to the creek on their Grandpa's land and do some shooting. One of the girls was a runner up in the Miss Kentucky pageant. She is built a lot like her Grandma, which is tall and slender but fairly strong.
After we had shot the .22's for awhile I got out a Ruger Super Blackhawk. A few of the boys shot it, then the niece asked if she could. I told her it was probably not a good idea. She insisted so I let her try. To my surprise, she fired it six times with no problem at all. I do think the fact that she was wearing eye and ear protection made a difference. Sometimes the recoil is not as bad as the blast.
54
posted on
04/15/2003 8:09:08 AM PDT
by
yarddog
To: dansangel
It's a well-known fact that women can (and do) outshoot men. Some good women do outshoot men. It's just that there are not that many of them. Look at shooting competitions. How many women show up, and how many win (outside of women's special categories)? For example, look at 2002 Bianchi Cup final scores.
55
posted on
04/15/2003 8:31:28 AM PDT
by
SauronOfMordor
(Heavily armed, easily bored, and off my medication)
To: demosthenes the elder
and a certain female viciousness which most men cannot imagine let alone match
ROTFLOL. Good thing I wasn't drinking anything. I would have choked.
To: Kevin Curry
Sure sounds to me like you have something againt women! Nobody said that they could carry as much or handle heavy weapons as well as a man, but let me tell you I would rather be up against a man in a gun fight than a woman protecting either herself or someone in her family. I would also hate to see what a woman could do as a sniper.
A woman will almost always buy a gun that fits her which gives her an advantage, a man on the otherhand will try and buy the biggest he can hold, it's an ego thing, if it wern't we wouldn't have .50 cal pistols..
My better half (dansangel) almost always beats me at the range, Freedom Poster has already attested to that. There are many more men that are good shots simply because there are many more men with guns.Given an equal amount of men and women with the same training I will bet on the women..
As far as a woman protecting herself I think at a minimum they should carry pepper spray or one step further a pistol, an agresser that is 20 feet or closer to a woman is too close, hand to hand with a man should be out of the question. As far as I am concerned it's too close for me too..
57
posted on
04/15/2003 8:47:02 AM PDT
by
.45MAN
(If you don't like it here try and find a better country, Please!!)
To: JohnHuang2
As far as I can see, most men are not only stronger, but also, faster than most women, though there are always some exceptions. I believe hard muscles, which men more naturally have than females, increase speed.
I used to watch my daughter's high school water polo team play against other schools (don't laugh, this is a very physical sport). The boys' team games always followed the girls' team. You'd think it was a different game, the boys were so much faster and stronger.
I agree with most of what has been said about martial arts, but would also add that a larger man, all things being equal, also has a huge advantage over a smaller guy.
I don't really know who might be better at shooting, my belief is that a more athletic person will usually have an advantage in shooting, that would seem to give an advantage to men, but, OTOH, my mother was a damn good shot and felt comfortable with rifle, shotgun or pistol. She was only 5'3", but I never saw her using small calibers.
58
posted on
04/15/2003 8:51:15 AM PDT
by
Sam Cree
To: SauronOfMordor
In my experience, I believe the low female attendance at competitions (and even just daily shooting practice at the range) is that they feel outclassed. It took a herculean effort on my part (and a bad experience with crime against possession, not person, thank God) to even ask my husband, .45MAN, if he would consider being a gun-owner again and would he teach me gun safety?
My first time at the range? I felt like all male eyes were upon me to see if I made a fool of myself, or not. Of course, they weren't, but that's just the way I felt.
Most of the women I talk to think guns are a "guy-thing" and that women should be "nurturers, not killers." My response: If someone tries to take my life or the life of any of my loved ones, the nurturing instinct will fly out the door and preservation of life will take over.
Frankly, I don't see much difference between "nurturing" and "preserving life."
The best thing men can do to encourage women to arm themselves for protection is to be supportive and have tons of patience - kind of like teaching us to drive. :-)
59
posted on
04/15/2003 9:00:19 AM PDT
by
dansangel
(America - love it, support it, or LEAVE IT!)
To: Sam Cree
Oh, speaking of women shooting, my 20 year old daughter, 5'3", about 120, has expressed interest in learning to shoot a shotgun, she would like to go bird hunting with my son and me.
Any suggestions as to a suitable shotgun would be welcome. I believe Browning markets an auto made just for ladies, I kind of like the idea since those have less recoil, then maybe she might use a 12 ga., which is an advantage in firepower.
60
posted on
04/15/2003 9:09:06 AM PDT
by
Sam Cree
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