Posted on 04/13/2003 6:32:28 AM PDT by MeekOneGOP
Conservatives, liberals fear broader anti-terror powers
Sides unite to protest Justice's push to widen Patriot Act's reach
04/13/2003
WASHINGTON – Fearful that the Bush administration is poised to ask Congress for greater anti-terrorism powers, including the right to strip Americans of their citizenship, liberals and conservatives are joining forces to block what they view as dangerous encroachments on civil liberties.
The loose-knit coalition was on display last week when conservative activists who otherwise are close administration allies joined the American Civil Liberties Union to decry the Justice Department's impending push for powers that could reach well beyond the USA Patriot Act that Congress raced to adopt in the dark, chaotic weeks after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.
The possible outlines of what the Justice Department is seeking in a bill dubbed "Son of Patriot" or "Patriot 2" has had privacy and civil libertarian groups across the political spectrum in an uproar since a draft was leaked in February.
Although Justice Department officials insist the 86-page bill is a preliminary draft that bears little resemblance to what ultimately will be requested, some fear it's a clear sign of things to come.
"Based on past history of various administrations, when draft legislation such as the 'Son of Patriot' that we've been now seeing are first denied and then they surface, where there's smoke there's fire," said former Rep. Bob Barr of Georgia, a conservative Republican who is now an ACLU consultant. "We are very worried that it will surface in some way relatively quickly."
Senate Judiciary Committee Democrats have argued that the Justice Department should work with Congress to draft new anti-terrorism legislation rather than write it in secret.
The leaked draft, stamped "Confidential – Not for Distribution," would grant federal law enforcement sweeping new power to wiretap, detain and punish suspected terrorists while limiting court review and cloaking certain information from the public. Among the most criticized proposals: the right to strip the citizenship of Americans who provide "material" support to organizations designated terrorist groups.
"Everyone is concerned with protecting our people and our society and our homeland," said American Conservative Union Chairman David Keene. "But everyone should be equally concerned at the potential costs to our society and its very nature if we adopt measures that in retrospect would be viewed as unwise."
Justice Department spokesman Mark Corallo declined to discuss which parts of the leaked draft have been discarded and which remain viable.
"We're not going to discuss things that are being deliberated right now," he said. He dismissed criticism that lawmakers are being cut out of the loop, saying Congress ultimately will decide whether to accept, reject or amend the package that will be sent to Capitol Hill later this year.
The Patriot Act has been "an invaluable tool" for terrorism prevention, Mr. Corallo said, adding that he thinks critics have misunderstood the law, which expanded wiretapping and spying authority; lowered prohibitions on the sharing of intelligence with criminal investigators; and imposed restraints on the public release of information.
"The Patriot Act actually strengthened constitutional protections," he said.
That view is far from universally shared.
Librarians in some cities are hastening their routine shredding of patrons' records because of Patriot Act provisions that allow the FBI to review records at libraries, bookstores and other businesses. A California dive shop owner objected when the FBI sought lists of clients at his and other dive shops around the country, citing the possibility that a terrorist diver could launch an attack by slipping unseen into a U.S. port.
And now, groups such as the Eagle Forum and American Conservative Union are setting aside historic policy differences with liberal-leaning organizations such as the ACLU and the Electronic Frontier Foundation to tackle a range of post-Sept. 11 actions they view as threats to freedoms.
"We've given up some civil liberties since 9-11, there is no doubt about it," said Lori Waters, the Eagle Forum's executive director.
Conservative groups historically have left the defense of civil liberties to the ACLU, conservative activist Grover Norquist said. But, he added, "I'm not sure given the Republican control of the House and the Senate and the government that we can count on our left-of-center friends to look out for some of these issues."
The Patriot Act and its possible successor aren't the liberal and conservative groups' only concerns. They fret about a data-mining program known as Total Information Awareness being developed within the Pentagon; an airline passenger profiling system that could roll out later this year; and other proposals.
Ms. Waters and others are voicing particular dismay at reports that Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, with administration backing, wants to make permanent Patriot Act provisions that expire in 2005.
"I am very concerned at the idea of getting rid of the sunsets," Mr. Norquist said.
Mr. Barr, the former congressman, said he viewed the Hatch bid, which apparently has been shelved for now, as an "end-run."
"This is particularly troubling because we have not yet had nearly the full opportunity that we ought to have to see how the Patriot Act is working," Mr. Barr said. "This is a very, very complex piece of legislation."
E-mail mmittelstadt@dallasnews.com
Having a 'big' military for a big country raises no problem with me. - Favoring a big federal government for a union of big government states & localites is ludicrous.
and more than a few of us relatively big government in others, such as preserving the social safety net (although perhaps not quite as big as present, but still big). Deal with it.
I try to 'deal', but me flesh is weak. -- It crawls when you socialist welfare FReeks pretend to be conservatives.
You can say we are ersatz conservatives, but then a case can be made that perhaps you might be one, since preserving the social order (some might consder that a conservative tenet) is not a high priority for you.
I arguably spend more time discussing/defending the constitutional rule of law than most posters here at FR. -- That, imo, ~should~ be considered the highest "social order" subject.
That it is not tells the tale. At one point most here agreed that:
"Free Republic is a place for people to discuss our common goals regarding the restoration of our constitutionally limited republican form of government.
If people have other agendas for FR, I really wish they would take them elsewhere.
Thanks, Jim 226 posted on 2/7/02 4:01 PM Pacific by Jim Robinson
Needless to say, your ideology doesn't prevent you from cashing your excessive SSI checks each and every month. No doubt such unprincipled hypocrisy is easy for you to rationalize.
Grover Norquist is in bed with the ACLU now.
Two of America's most prominent conservative leaders and a former Democrat ambassador and Boston mayor have written a letter to President Bush opposing a Justice Department proposal that would permit state and local law enforcement agencies to track down illegal immigrants as a way to fight terrorism.
David Keene, Chairman of the American Conservative Union, Grover Norquist president of Americans for Tax Reform - a top political analyst - and former Boston mayor and ambassador to the Vatican Ray Flynn who heads the Catholic Alliance took the side of police officials and immigrant rights activists in urging the president to prevent the proposal from being implemented.
Police officials across the nation have already criticized the idea, warning that it would endanger their relations with immigrants. especially because they would be reluctant to report crimes fearing they might be exposed to charges of immigration law violations.
According to the New York Times' Eric Schmitt, on Friday the three men wrote to the President complaining that the plan, now being reviewed by Attorney General John Ashcroft, would create a dangerous precedent because it would empower local authorities to become enforcement tools of the federal government.
Needless to say, your ideology doesn't prevent you from cashing your excessive SSI checks each and every month.
Excessive? Whatta boob. -- I'll have to live 12 more years or so to get back what I put in, - and the odds are against me.
No doubt such unprincipled hypocrisy is easy for you to rationalize.
I'm sure you tell your mom & dad that same line, every month when you cash their check.
Hypocrisy, thy name is CJ.
Sometimes I wonder if there is any possibility of a rational discourse between the 'reasonable conservative' faction that cinfla, sinkspur, Roscoe, CJ, et al. represent and the constitutionalist libertarian faction that most others on here push. I think that it's easier for most to call out the anti-American card than say simply, this is a line I wouldn't cross. I didn't think it was such a hard question. I think it's just easier to stick out your tongue than say, 'Here I stand, I can do no other.'
To answer my own question: RE: BOR Amendment #1, which, let me remind you is:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
I would never have made the statement 'you can't yell fire in a crowded theater.' Sure, this is true, because your statement could cause harm, but the restrictions since placed have gutted the First Amendment, and the case on which this famous quote rests was purely political speech, which is what the First Amendment was all about. Peaceable assembly PERMITS are essentially blocks on the idea that people can freely assemble--government has to give you permission! When government intervenes in free expression that is ignoring the Constitution.
BOR2, Which states:
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
When we allowed government to decide who carries a gun, the U.S. broke the intent of the Second Amendment.
BOR5, which states:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
I think that until we're actually in a war, not a 'War Powers Act' conflict, or a "War On Etc.," the removal of Constitutional protection against being held on these crimes is not legally justified, and I'm in agreement with you somewhat. I have vacillated on this issue before, because it is a national security issue and that I have strong concerns about our security makes it difficult to side with potential terrorists. But to clarify: holding any AMERICAN CITIZENS on charges of capital crimes, or worse, on no crimes at all (though that's a 6th amendment issue, too) without a grand jury indictment is going too far. I am in agreement with other posts that stated that the U.S. Constitution doesn't protect non-citizens.
And for those of you who dodged the question by saying it's a spurious one, that we are not faced with the question of liberty vs. security, I don't think I asked you if you wanted liberty or security. I didn't present you that stark choice. I just asked you what would be going too far for you constitutionally.
So let me ask you again. After Soros, etal, take away your freedoms, are you going to really enjoy your drugs then?
I have a hard time coming to rational discourse with those that want to have heroin, crack, ectasy sold at the corner grocery store. A few, including the Libertarian party, even want the drugs to be available to minors. The hatred of some on this board for anyone that even challenges their positions is amazing.
If you don't agree that the WOD is a TOTAL failure and should be immediately ended then your are evil.
How can you take serious their pro-drug posts when they come right off the Soros sponsered web-sites.
How can you take serious their posts of the medical marijuana scam artists in California.
How can you take them serious when they seem to think the socialists in California should be looked up to for being progressive druggist.
Perhaps you should read your BOR5 a little closer .....
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