Posted on 04/13/2003 12:37:13 AM PDT by JohnHuang2
TATE COLLEGE, Pa., April 11 — As it reverberated along the American hallway that is Interstate 80, the corridor from San Francisco Bay to the New Jersey suburbs, the national conversation about the fall of Baghdad this week ranged from applauding to appalled, from cocksure to gun-shy.
"One thing the people over there respect is power," said Steve Khazadian, 45, a football coach from Syracuse who was eating lunch at a tavern between sessions of a coaches' clinic at Penn State.
Five feet away at the bar, Larry Barker, 67, a traveling businessman, muttered into his martini about "shock and awe."
"I don't like that image for the United States," he said. "It's so obnoxious. I don't think the role of this country should be to shock, and I don't think that because of us wreaking destruction we should be held in awe."
Six months after a similar series of interviews along I-80 — when the country was wrestling with President Bush's push to attack Iraq — the nation's uncertainty over the necessity and cost of war seems to have given way to a host of new anxieties, as well as unsettling new answers.
Many speculate that the fighting in Iraq is far from over. Those who supported the invasion of Iraq find themselves wondering what will happen if no chemical or biological weapons are ever found.
And admirers and detractors of the Bush administration ask whether it considered all the possible consequences of the war beforehand.
Outside the Pacific Stock Exchange in San Francisco, conservative stock traders voice misgivings about what they call the country's John Wayne approach to geopolitics. In Cheyenne, Wyo., real-life cowboys say that someone has to police the world, and that the United States is the only power that is capable.
A streak of paternalism emerges: in conversations across the Midwest, men young and old speak of the United States and Iraq as of a parent disciplining a rebellious child.
There was regret over the cost in lives — more than 100 Americans killed so far, and untold Iraqi civilians and soldiers — but seemingly little anguish. "It's never acceptable to have a loss of life," said Ed Prosser, a rancher in Cheyenne. "But considering the scope of the war, it's not much. That's easy to say if it's not your son; then it's tough to accept. I think it makes it easier when you know what you're doing is right."
All along the 2,909-mile highway, those who fear an indefinite postwar entanglement speak of its incalculable costs and ask what will be done about the limping American economy. Many also give voice to a deepening unease with the country's lonely position at the top of the global power heap.
But in South Bend, Ind., Gary Chadwell suggested a seemingly simple solution, with hardly a care for the message it sends. "I think they should pay us back — maybe with a tax on their oil," he said. "We didn't have to go over there and help."
While the earlier interviews, in early October, were rife with references to Sept. 11, 2001, the recurring theme this week — in scores of conversations at truck stops and ball fields, in small towns, college towns and big cities — was of attacks on America possibly still to come, of threats not yet known, plotted or even imagined.
"We're pushing our luck," said Bassam Ramadan, a 22-year-old native of Jordan who was watching cars and women go by in Paterson, N.J., as police officers watched him and his friends from across the street. "Hopefully, our luck won't run out."
`We're the Big Guns in Town'
Robert Hartmann, 25, an equity analyst in San Francisco, welcomes the toppling of Saddam Hussein as much as anyone, since uncertainty in the war effort hampers economic growth. But he sounds as if he would not mind another military adventure as soon as this one ends.
Mr. Hartmann, of Marin, Calif., said the nation must police the world, especially what he called "closed-minded, uneducated countries." But he dismissed those who call the United States an imperialist power.
"We are not trying to take over the economy of another country," he said on a lunch break outside the stock exchange. "We are trying to provide its people with basic human rights."
Alan Reid Jr., of San Mateo, who runs a mutual fund firm, said his own overriding concern was whether the Bush administration had the diplomatic savvy and intellect to offer solutions.
"We have definitely sent a John Wayne message to the world," he said. "How can anyone not see that we have sent a message straight out of the American West? We're the good guys. We're the big guns in town. We'll tell you how it is going to be. But do we have the ability to build relationships?"
Mr. Reid said he was less confident in the nation's war on terrorism. "We're great with bullets and bombs," he said. "But this is the new war, and we haven't figured out how to fight it."
'A Bog-Down Concern'
In Sacramento, Julie Baumhoff, 50, said she was repelled by the idea that the United States might invade other nations in the name of liberation or fighting terrorism. "The monster we know may be better than the monster we don't know," she said.
Ms. Baumhoff, a state worker, worries about California's immense budget deficit — and thus her job. She worries, too, about the way America is perceived abroad — a vestige of her days in the 1970's as an au pair in France. "We act like we're doing it for totally moral reasons, when often we're totally immoral people," she said.
Yet she says she is less worried about the United States becoming an imperial power, pointing to America's long presence in Japan, Germany and South Korea. "I have more of a bog-down concern," she said.
She complained that reading the headlines was like watching a yo-yo. "We seem to do really well one day and not the next," she said. "Two weeks ago, it looked as if we were going to be there for years." Now she is not so sure.
The images and news of the past few days, she said, bring her "a lot of worry, a little relief at this moment." She added, echoing many television watchers, "This is the beginning, not the end."
'There Was a Necessary Evil'
Walking his new foal, Rosa, around a small pen under a clear blue sky, Mr. Prosser, a fourth-generation rancher and a freshman Republican state representative, said he believed the war might help the United States improve the political environment in the region — perhaps by sending a warning to other totalitarian regimes.
"We can't go to every country in the Middle East," he said. "Hopefully we can influence some other countries. I think that's one thing this administration had in mind with this war."
Mr. Prosser, 54, said he believed the administration was right to flex its muscle in Iraq and elsewhere. "We can't do it all, but we can't sit back and do nothing," he said. "I don't believe in isolationism, and we can't sit back and block the borders. We have to have some involvement."
In downtown Cheyenne, Jack Sorensen, a 54-year high school agriculture teacher from Wheatland, Wyo., waited for his students outside a Future Farmers of America convention. He said he was glad to see the statue of Saddam Hussein fall on Wednesday morning, but was cautious about the outcome of the war.
"I'm not necessarily an advocate of war," he said. "But there was a necessary evil. I think it strains the relations with other countries, our allies, and the process of trying to deal with terrorism."
Mr. Sorensen said he had mixed feelings about America's role in world affairs. "I don't know where it was given to the U.S. that we had to feed the world, but we do," he said. "I don't know that we need to be the humanitarian leader of the world."
He was also still conflicted about Iraq. "I think it's essential they find some evidence of chemical weapons," he said. "I don't know what they'll do if they don't."
For Some, Second Thoughts
At Joliet Junior College, west of Chicago, Christine Martinez was surprising herself, imagining what could happen if America sent troops in to liberate other countries and set them up as apprentice democracies. She had not even supported the war in Iraq.
"But just by listening to the news and seeing the joy of the Iraqi people welcoming their freedom, I took a different point of view, saying that maybe us going out there was something good for the people, even though there was loss of life," said Mrs. Martinez, 36, a mother of three, on a break from cramming for an accounting test.
Now, she said, she believes that American troops should "stick around, to help those people who have just found a different way of life." After that, she said, "once we see that they can do it on their own, we should just back away and consider them an ally."
Mrs. Martinez said the country had to continue the war on terrorism, too. "I think it's still out there," she said. "I'm sure there are still some small groups planning to do something to us in America and other countries who are our allies. That's the scary part. But if we go in, freeing countries like Iraq, providing monetary support and a new government, they'll be stronger, and hopefully the terrorist groups will be smaller and smaller and we can overcome them."
Not everyone at Joliet Junior College had the same reaction to the as-seen-on-TV war.
Myrna Randolph, a 74-year-old student, said she had lived through every war since World War II, having graduated from high school in 1946. "I really despise how much you see on television now, but it really makes it real," she said, sipping water after a physical education class.
"I don't know," Ms. Randolph said. "It's a moral issue: here we are, blowing the devil out of their country for their own good. And I'm always worried about doing things for people's own good."
But Seriously . . .
"Put them in a ring," said Pat Johnson, as he put his money under the safety glass at a liquor store in an industrial stretch of Gary, Ind. "Let Bush and Saddam duke it out, like on `Celebrity Boxing.' " He picked up a minibottle of V.S.O.P., two malt liquors and a bag of chips and walked out.
His friend, James Dalton, 33, a truck driver who served in the Army in the 1991 gulf war, laughed, but stuck around to talk seriously. He said he wished the country had finished the job then. But he questioned the appropriateness of both wars.
"I think the goals are all the same: monetary value and control," he said. "Why are we always sticking our nose in everybody else's business? These people, they've been under a strict dictatorship. It'll start nice and easy. But who's to say another dictator won't rise out of the people? One monkey doesn't stop a show. You got dictators waiting in the wings."
He shook his head, chuckled, then turned serious again. "I know I'm in a liquor store, but let me tell you, Jesus Christ is the only way," he said, heading out to catch up to Mr. Johnson.
'It's the American Empire'
Wearing flip-flops in 40-degree weather, Marc Ricchiute, a third-year law student at Notre Dame, dropped off a motion at the county courthouse in South Bend, Ind., and got to talking about the war, as he often does these days.
"I'm worried about the precedent it may set for American foreign policy," said Mr. Ricchiute, 26, who grew up here. "I was against the war in Iraq, against the idea of a pre-emptive war. And now we're talking about Syria, and the help they've given to members of the Iraqi regime. I don't want our foreign policy to return to that direction — to the big-stick days."
He said that if soldiers found biological or chemical weapons, it would only give America "a leg up" on traditional allies that defied it over Iraq. "I'd like to see more balance," he said. "It's the American empire."
"I spent the last two years living in London," he added. "It was almost at times embarrassing to be an American, and trying to justify and speak for the Bush administration. I had to justify that to people who just see us as the world's police."
Mr. Ricchiute said he was talking to the mother of a friend in the military the other day. "He's in Baghdad now," he said. "I said, `How would you feel if he died?' She said, `At least I'd know he's fighting for our freedom.' But the Iraqi people haven't curtailed my freedom. I don't feel threatened by Saddam Hussein."
'I'd Be for It if No One Died'
The freshman and sophomore rowers of Notre Dame Academy's crew were out across the muddy Maumee River from downtown Toledo, Ohio, but they were still taking turns in the dock box, practicing their strokes, one at a time. There was plenty of time to stand around and talk about the war, the news, the blood and gore.
"It's devastating," said Ashley Lavey, 15. "I can't even watch it. It's so sad to see that, all the killing, everyone dying. I was reading the paper today, and they found a woman's torso and a little boy's body in a bomb they dropped. That's so sad! I'd be for it if no one died. I support our troops, but I'm not going to be all for it."
"I wonder what Osama is up to," said Laura Johns, 14.
"I just want to know, what'll happen when they catch Saddam?" Ashley said. "They have to finish it somehow. Or when they find weapons of mass destruction, and then Saddam?"
"I think we should stay out of it," said Sascha Ehret, 15. "I think we should be concerned with what's going on in our country."
"I'm glad Saddam's out of power," Laura said.
"I've heard Saddam is like torturing his people," Ashley said. "You see how happy they are now. I don't think they'd want someone from the U.S. to take over. I don't think they'd think of us as their best friend. But they're safer now."
"I think if we do stuff for them, they'll be thankful, but then they're going to just go back to hating us," Sascha said. "I think the Arabs dislike us because we chose to help Israel get a nation. Because if I was an Arab, and there first, and the U.S. helped Israel get a nation, I'd hold a grudge too."
"I think it was good we went to take Saddam out of power," said Lauren Hirt, 14. "But not to take power over them."
"We're making everybody think that we think that we're almighty," said Sascha. "That nobody can bring us down. I think it's going to make other countries not like us."
"But don't half of them already hate us?" Lauren asked.
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