Russian organization was training Iraqi spies, documents show (more info from Iraqi documents)

A Moscow-based organization was training Iraqi intelligence agents as recently as last September -- at the same time Russia was resisting the Bush administration's push for a tough stand against Saddam Hussein's regime, Iraqi documents discovered by The Chronicle show.

Because I beleive to Russian Atomic Energy experts and International atomic energy commision experts that Iranians cann't extract nothing from those reactors.

Putin Refuses to Stop Supplying Iran With Nuclear Reactor Components At Summit (5/26/02)

Although the reactor (Bushehr) is not designed to produce nuclear weapons, the spent fuel from the reactor could be reprocessed to yield plutonium, which is why the reactor is under Inernational Atomic Energy Safeguards.

Thank you for offering a Russian perspective in our Forum .

Most of the denizens of this forum are American patriots, so we will give little sympathy to any Russian doublecrossing of important American interests, even putting our soldiers in harm's way.

That being said, I will put my objective hat for 30 seconds and pretend I’m a dispassionate observer of the Russian actions in Iraq:

I understand that President Putin was elected by Russians to look after Russian interests, so Putin cannot be blamed for putting Russia first in his political moves.

Nevertheless, supplying weapons and intelligence to a moribund regime of murdering cowards, after the US declared publicly its intention to have regime change, might not have been to the best interest of the Russian people.

These Iraqi thugs were so chicken-livered that they left Babhdad in a hurry, without destroying documents embarrassing to the Russian government.

Now everybody in the world has access to Iraqi documents, weapons, and personnel that will present Russia to the world as a two-faced liar. On one hand, completely aware of the torture chambers, WMDs, and children prisons in Iraq, while publicly defending the Iraqi regime. Or at least, never condemning in strong terms the horrible conditions in which the Iraqi people were forced to live.

In the short term, the new Iraqi government as well the current US government will not feel comfortable dealing with Russia. And in business, people usually eschew potential partners who have been proven to be double-crossers.

It is to the American best interest to have a strong and prosperous Russia, and most of the American people have no animosity toward the Russian people or government (Most Americans like Russians).

It is unfortunate that Putin decided to aid such as despicable and stupid dictator, Hussein, after Putin knew that Hussein’s days were numbers.

Helping Hussein in the last year was political amateurism in its worst. Even the rats jump when ship starts to sink.

If it were it probably started BEFORE US decided to remove Saddam.
Russia sells arms and expertise to 72 states now.
Some of them are not liked in US.

But for Russia there are same. Liked or not. It is business.
What different between Saddam and general Musharaff of Pakistan? They both dictators so. No difference.

They both was nothing to do with AlKaeda. They was Saudis and based in Taliban Afganistan. Russia helped US with them. Remember?

So Musharaff even have nukes. So I think more dangerous then Saddam.
But US don't choose to remove him.
So I for one don't see logic here. I beleive Putin too.

The Russians provided Iran with the high strength Aluminum needed to make the centrifuges that the Iranians will use to produce a nuclear weapon. +++

You always change subjects. First you told me that Russia "provides" them with weapon grade matherials.
Now some aluminum came forward.
It looks like you just seek something dirty whatever it is.
How you devised that raw aluminum went to iranian centrifuges? But not for electricity line poles?

But at least you stop to tell us then that Russia help them with american technology the centrifuging:)).

the spent fuel from the reactor could be reprocessed to yield plutonium, which is why the reactor is under Inernational Atomic Energy Safeguards.+++

Yes that can be done. If one have appropriate technology.
But that technology is only in Russia possesion. Even USA don't have that technology today.
And Russia won't give it to anyone including USA not mention Iran.

Without that technology you cann't do nothing. What you would have the matherial like uranian ore which you have to enrich. But extract plutonium are difficulter then to enrich uranium.

So no wonder for me that iranians by your words turned to american technology instead of russian way.

But for Russia there are same. Liked or not. It is business

I’m a businessman, and I understand your point.

I do business with mostly honest companies, but some companies I suspect do not have clean hands.

Nevertheless, once I find out a specific company is about to be indicted (taken to court) for corrupt and illegal practices, I cease doing business with that company, even if I lose money.

Keeping my good reputation and my good relationship with other company managers is very important to me.

When I look at Russia, I see poor business management.

Why jeopardize doing business with the largest market in the universe, United States, or the future Iraqi government by selling a few millions worth of weapons and training.

After Hussein became an American target, it was not worth it to be associated with such incompetent and evil regime.

That’s my humble opinion trying to act as a dispassionate observer.

I hope Russia will become a major economic powerhouse, since a weak Russia is not good for the US. China can gobble up Siberia if Russia is weakened, or the former Soviet states in Central Asia can become Talibanistans, or Russian nuclear scientists can sell their expertise to terrorist willing to pay them decent salaries.

Even I were just a selfish American, I will never wish a weak or isolated Russia.

When I look at Russia, I see poor business management. +++

You probably right. In that department we have LOT of thing to do.

If it is worth something I appologize on behalf of Russia for Russia did some grief to US on that.

But you note some things.

Russia didn't defend saddam just objected his removal for obvious reason.
Yes she sold him some expertise and double use equipment for high buck. No modern arms. Those ATGM Kornet came from Syria I beleive.

I repeat from my point of view he is no worser then Musharaff of Pakistan or Saudis.
That is it.

When I look at Alaska, I think I’d rather share a border with Russia than China.

When I saw the Russians fighting the Chechnyans in Grozny, I thought to myself. Can you imagine if Chechnya becomes an anti-American rogue state? How many Americans will have to die there? The Chechnyans are tough fighters.

So in many respects, I’m glad Russia is there. I just hope that Russia will become more sophisticated when dealing with the US. We are not enemies anymore, and as Japan and Germany have proven, former enemies can become US allies.

Why are we leaving China out of this - didn't I read they found weapons from China in there, too.

I am just amazed at the sacred cow attitude toward China who poses such a threat economically and militarily to this country and apparently sold, or gave, weapons to Iraq and refused to support us.

Does the fact Russia is still communist and still very dangerous and still very anti-American surprise anyone? If it did, keep those rose-colored glasses on - you may not be able to take the real world.

Just because President Bush thinks Pooty-(whatever) and Foxy are great guys doesn't make it so.

Here are two of probably many reasons why the U.S. has chosen not to remove Musharaff:

#1)

Musharaff chose to cooperate after 9/11 which has lead to the arrest of many terrorists, including the #2 Al-Quida leader.
Saddam could have chosen to cooperate as well, disclosed his WMD's but didn't, and by doing could have possibly remained in power.

#2)

Musharaff already has nuclear weapons. We cannot take him out in the conventional sense like we could with Saddam. Saddam did not have nuclear weapons, but was trying to obtain them, and that is exactly the reason why we took him out now.
Also, I would like to point out that the U.S. has not taken out Kim Jong Il either. The reason you ask? Because North Korea has nuclear weapons. Why do they have them?

US accuses Russia and China over North Korea bomb (10/19/02)

US accuses Russia and China over North Korea bomb (10/19/02)+++

Did you read your own references?

That one says "..It was not clear how far the US was accusing Moscow, Beijing and Islamabad of allowing parts to be sent to Pyongyang, or blaming lax security for the trade. US officials think that technology for the gas centrifuges needed to make weapons-grade uranium came from more than one country. ..."
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/772101/posts

"Not clear" did you red this? And here again gas centrifuges.

No such technology in Russia!
Russia don't enrich uranium. Russia extracts PLUTONIUM after breading reactor with chemical reactives and metallurgic process.
No centrifuges. It is OLD VERY OLD AMERICAN technology. Abondoned very long ago as unproductive.

Read about Manhetten Project.

With that kind of pretention you will be laughed upon in russia. It works only for ignorant and illiterate people.
Like rednecks on this forum!

If you like to fool around rednecks then go ahead. Don't fool me!

This, my dear Russian friend, is the reason why Russian sales of Missile and Nuclear technology and supporting materials, (i.e. High Strength Aluminum), to any Dictatorship or Communist or extremist Isalmic regime will not, and should not be tolerated. +++

Not tolerated? But if your claims totally false?

Why american specialists of goverment silent about it. Or says like "not clear". Them it is "not clear".
But you already decided everything. "Not tolelated".

Look whos talking! He know everything.
You don't know common sense and the base things about atomic technology.
You just gather the pile of garbage around you. And siffing it through.

Ok I tried to help you. But now I see that you have just bone head. No thing more.

No such technology in Russia! Russia don't enrich uranium. Russia extracts PLUTONIUM after breading reactor with chemical reactives and metallurgic process. No centrifuges. It is OLD VERY OLD AMERICAN technology. Abondoned very long ago as unproductive.

Lets get a few facts straight here. Centrifuge Enrichment

"The gas centrifuge process is more recent. It has been developed to a commercial level by Russia and by Urenco-Centec, an industrial group formed by British, German and Dutch companies. Russia's three plants at Seversk, Zelenogorsk and Novouralsk account for almost 30% of world capacity. Urenco-Centec operates enrichment plants in UK, Netherlands and Germany."

It should also be noted, that:

"No gas centrifuge plants are now operating in the United States, however, both Louisiana Energy Services (LES) and U.S. Enrichment Corporation (USEC) have plans to submit license applications in 2002."

Now tell me, my good friend, why would Louisiana Energy Servies submit a license for Gas Centrifuge Enrichment if it were such an old and obsolete technology?

I would also like to point out that a Light-Water Reactor requires enriched Uranium 235 as fuel. The same process of Gas Centrifuging that is used to create fuel for a Light-Water Reactor (Bushehr) is also used to create nuclear weapons.

How you devised that raw aluminum went to iranian centrifuges? But not for electricity line poles?

Hmm... Let me see.... Russia sells high strength Aluminum to Iran in 2001 and then all of a sudden in 2003 Iran has a Gas Centrifuge Plant that nobody knew about, which requires high strength Aluminum to build....

Ivan, since you're new here and in an effort to help you, I am going to give you some advice. If you want your stay on FR to be a plesant one, you should take it.

When you're dealing with international politics, especially in war time, it pays to be objective. If you take criticizm of a particular countries foreign policy (like Russia, for example) as a personal slight, then you are going to do nothing but fight with people the whole time you're here.

Trust me, I know all about it. I am German and if I had such thin skin FR would be an unbearable experience.

But, that's just my opinion..

You just gather the pile of garbage around you. And siffing it through.

Why does this sound so familiar to me? ...Oh yes, I've heard this before.

Orion you gather just load of sh*t and all the day sniffing as it smells. It is not sane sir. Posted by kolja2003

Perhaps it has something to do with translating Russian into English?

Like rednecks on this forum!

P.S. You better put on an asbestos suit after making a comment like this. I seem to recall a certian Tom Daschle calling conservatives 'Rednecks' and they didn't take it to kindly.

There's a lot of unanswered questions here.

Such as what exactly the "Special Training Center" is.

The Kornet ATGMs were thought to be a smoking gun, until we found out it was Syria who had provided `em, and Syria got called out.

The advisors themselves may not even be a smoking gun. How many former spetznaz have offered their services to unsavory elements?

Quite a few, I'd bet. Note that Achalov and the other guy they had there were hard-line communists and NOT connected wiht the government.

We need to know more details before we convict the Russian government for aiding and abetting Saddam.

"The gas centrifuge process is more recent. It has been developed to a commercial level by Russia and by Urenco-Centec, an industrial group formed by British, German and Dutch companies. Russia's three plants at Seversk, Zelenogorsk and Novouralsk account for almost 30% of world capacity. Urenco-Centec operates enrichment plants in UK, Netherlands and Germany."

As far as I know Russia uses gas diffusion process. Not centrifuges. Those cities have breader reactors which build to produce plutonium. Everyone knows it in Russia.

No uranuim again. I'm sorry:)).

"No gas centrifuge plants are now operating in the United States, however, both Louisiana Energy Services (LES) and U.S. Enrichment Corporation (USEC) have plans to submit license applications in 2002."
Now tell me, my good friend, why would Louisiana Energy Servies submit a license for Gas Centrifuge Enrichment if it were such an old and obsolete technology?++++

I don't know. Maybe they don't smart enough:)).
(After reading some posts I begin to think that well commended american smartness very exagarated).

I would also like to point out that a Light-Water Reactor requires enriched Uranium 235 as fuel. The same process of Gas Centrifuging that is used to create fuel for a Light-Water Reactor (Bushehr) is also used to create nuclear weapons.+++

Wrong again.
For Reactor fuel Uranium-235 is enriched by chemical process up to ONLY 4.5% purity. It is enough for nuclier reactor.
No one don't need to enrich Uranium-235 to 100% purity except for weapon.
But as I said russia uses plutonium based nukes.
So no gas centrifuging again I'm sorry:)).

Hmm... Let me see.... Russia sells high strength Aluminum to Iran in 2001 and then all of a sudden in 2003 Iran has a Gas Centrifuge Plant that nobody knew about, which requires high strength Aluminum to build.... ++++

And you decided they used russian aluminum? Maybe it is coincendence. Or maybe they get help from anyone else.

They know how to build those centrifuges anyway as you told. Then in same time you told me about Luisiana centrifuging.
Hence I do obvious conclusion.

My conclusion same solid as yours:)).

If you take criticizm of a particular countries foreign policy (like Russia, for example) as a personal slight, then you are going to do nothing but fight with people the whole time you're here. +++

I begin to rant after I try to explain few things. But I rammed into stupid arrogance and boneheadness instead of understanding.

I'm here just try to get them another perspective. Accually if they ban me I just shug and go away.
Let some people continue be stupid. At least it simplify my earning of money on them.

The leaders of USA are smart so it is enough for me.
If anyone be smart it would be nightmare:)).

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