Looters Ransack Baghdad's Antiquities Museum

Reuters ^ | April 12, 2003 | Hassan Hafidh

[RightWhale]

With responsibility comes accountability

You have a point there. The clause about an active battle will be invoked. Neither Iraq, nor Saddam's regieme, have surrendered.

[terilyn]

Thank you for helping put this into perspective. Your insight is much appreciated.

[WOSG]

What 'other side'? I dont see anyone arguing that the looting of the museum by baghdad residents was a good thing.
The issue is whether to buy this argument that the pentagon is to blame and not the LOOTERS THEMSELVES, and indeed the strawman argument that the pnetagon is somehow responsible for every bad thing that is going on a city that they barely have any control over.

[WOSG]

yes, blame the Govt and not those doing the actions is definitely the moralism of Liberals. It is even more absurd to apply in a case where the authority, power and Govt doesnt really exist.

[Fifth Business]

Thank you for your husband's perspective. It will be interesting to see how the military explains their failure to secure this precious world treasure.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

How true is this story? The Looters smashed 170,000 items in a day and broke into bank vault like rooms? I think not.

Smells of an inside job!

[Rodney King]

The issue is whether to buy this argument that the pentagon is to blame and not the LOOTERS THEMSELVES, and indeed the strawman argument that the pnetagon is somehow responsible for every bad thing that is going on a city that they barely have any control over.

Right, that's the point. The war has all sorts of different groups who beleive that their preferences ought to equate with Rumsfeld's priorities.

You have th environmentalists not wanting us to use DU ammunition.

You have the reporters who want all planning to be done around their safety after they refuse to evacuate war zones.

And now you have the tea and crumpets crowd getting their panties in a twist because their won't be a tresures of Iraq coffee table book out anytime in the near future.

Yeah, it's a bad thing. It might even be as bad as the arm-chair generals here insist. However, the people to blame are Saddam Hussein and the looters.

We were given a list of important sites. We went out of our way not to bomb or damage them, even when Iraqi units were stationed nearby. For whatever reason, we failed to anticpate that this would happen.

Perhpas our generals were busy trying to find the other 7 POW's. Perhaps they were busy trying to find the nuclear and/or chemical weapons. Perhaps they were tracking down war criminals. Perhaps they were planning the attack on Tikrit.

It sucks what happened, and that's all there is to say. People need to get down from their ivory towers and realize that the world does not revolve around their priorities 100% of the time.

[Constitution Day]

Ping.

[wideminded]

I was very happy to hear about those things too.

[WOSG]

Good commentary. And I thank the soldier for his service!

The US military performed magnificently. When we think of all that could have gone wrong, but didnt - chemical attacks, dams blwon up, oil wells destroyed, massive civilian casualties and refugees, heavier US military casualties - we should be grateful that the worst tragedy we can argue over is the theft (not even LOSS! just theft) of a museum's ancient artifacts.

[WOSG]

When you find some evidence that the vaults were looted prior to the entry of American troops into Bagdad please feel free to post it. Until then, the evidence is to the contrary.

Dont twist my words! I never argued when it happened, but I asked WHO DID IT? ... You said."To suggest the place had been pillaged by corrupt Saddam operatives before US troops got there is ludicrous," I then asked: "then who pray tell did it? Where did they come from? who were they?"

If you have honest answers to this, it would be good to know. How do you know these looters were NOT saddam's former fedayeen or henchmen out to loot something? This is a fair question whether it happened before or after the troops being in baghdad center. remember, these operatives are in baghdad, EVEN NOW, shooting at marines, it is not like they just all up and left.

[WOSG]

but I wonder why the curator isn't thanking the US for NOT bombing the museum. Lost and looted articles are at least in one piece and can be begged, borrowed, bought or stolen back.

Likely because the curator is a Saddamite appointee who knows how to play to the Al-Jazeera 'blame-USA-first' coverage. Any act of US kindness and concern for Iraq's cultural heritage is to be seen as weakness, or at least thoroughly ignored.

viz. my other comment about the shrine at Kerbala. we treated that shrine far better than practically ever Muslim conqueror to come through that city, even thought it risked Marine lives to not fire back at the saddam fedayeen holed up there. those who have spilled blood on that shrine include Saddam in 1991, and the fanatics last week, who murdered a competing cleric on its hallowed grounds.

[WOSG]

The Library of Alexandria was mere books too I guess. Heck more were written. Right?

---

Wrong. Not analogous since our active knowledge is far larger compared with what is in a single museum. static knowledge is copied, recorded. The only way to analogy of the library of Alexandria would be the loss of the entire internet. And it was the loss of active knowledge around it.

It is simply a fact that modern civilization doesnt need any of these artifacts for iraq to function. they dont it how to get its electricity, water, and oil industry moving. they dont tell it how to grow more food. They dont tell it how to advance economically. and they dont tell it how to reform the government. that is why I said a single photocopy of the US Constitution has more relevence to what Iraq has to do than all their antiquities. It is an inspriation to the active knowledge they need to write their own governmental constitution. Iraq needs active useful knowledge to get them back on their feet. It's a pity people dont understand the difference between artifacts, static knowledge, and active knowledge. 3 different things!

[general_re]

Oil fields can be rebuilt.

Actually, from what I understand, many of the Iraqi oilfields are fairly low pressure affairs - IIRC, there was some concern before the war that if many of the wells had been set afire, there was at least a reasonable possibility that they wouldn't be able to reconstruct them. Perhaps PW or someone else with more understanding of oil geology can comment on this, but I do strongly remember hearing something along these lines. If that's the case, it may have been a bit harder of a choice than it might appear at first blush. Sacrifice priceless historical treasures, or sacrifice the future wealth of the country....

In any case, it's done now, so probably the best thing to do is to make an offer of general amnesty for returned artifacts as soon as it's feasible, or perhaps even seek money to start a reward fund for returned artifacts.

[mrsmith]

"identities of the looters"
Here's a police sketch of one:

Next war CNN will hire retired curators to criticize how we fight it.

[WOSG]

"Of course it is worth human lives to protect that."

Did the museum staff agree? Quick question: how many of the museum staff risked their lives to save these things? how many got injured fighting off looters? Where are there scars?

hmmmmm.

[Torie]

So your MO is to hide behind a caurious, craven or corrupt Saddam hired museum staff? Whatever floats you boat. It won't boats with many on board, except those whose boats never leave drydock.

[Torie]

Caurious = cautious.

[error99]

Amen

[Physicist]

Quick question: how many of the museum staff risked their lives to save these things? how many got injured fighting off looters?

Probably none. Now, how many were injured or killed attempting to overthrow Saddam? None, you say? Well, I guess by your logic we should not have liberated them.

That still wouldn't apply to the museum, however. Their freedom isn't our freedom, but their cultural heritage is most definitely OUR cultural heritage. Just because they were derelict in their duty to defend it, it does NOT mean that we should join them in that dereliction.