Posted on 04/08/2003 3:48:21 AM PDT by Asher
Will the U.S. have any role in this war? If so, how?
The vast blooming of the population from an influx of both Arabs and Jews was a self-feeding phenomena. As more and more people moved into Palestine, bringing more and more money and talent, the economy increased ever faster requiring more and more laborers, thus bringing in more settlers of both ethnicities. There was no sinister plot to feed Arabs into the territory.
I never said that there was a sinister plot to feed Arabs into the territory.
What I said was that there was a large influx of illegal immigration and in-migrants in to the Mandate after the Jews came. These illegal immigrants and in-migrants, who's whole time in the land could be 30 years at most, are now described by Arafat as an indigenous population thrown off their land... the land they owned since time immemorial to make room for the invading Jews. This same population, which now equals 5,000,000 displaced Palestinians have a right to return to their homes.
This statement is utter folly. Even your own post says that Volney, Twain, et al were correct when they said the land was desolate and void of population.
The Mandate never said that the Arabs had to leave to make room for the Jews. The Jews never said that the Arabs had to leave to make room for them. In fact, in 1947, the Jews are on record imploring the Arabs to stay put.
Today, if a Palestinian can make a claim of property in Israel, the government makes restitution.
its difficult to term the rest of the area the same way without willfully ignoring the facts.
No it is not diffult and it is not done willfully ignoring the facts.
The land was desolate, under populated, and able to sustain an influx of Jews... The Arabs came looking for work. You can't blame them. But you cannot call them indigenous population.
Even the UN says that a Palestinian is anyone who had been in Palestine before 1946. Hardly indigenous.
If you do the math each settlement (a village or town), when you exclude the wastes of the Negev Desert, had an area of about 10 square miles about it, putting the distance between them at approximately 3 miles. This is a density of settlement comparable to most parts of the American midwest.
This is just a huge fallicy. In the 1281 years the Arab controlled this land, they only built one new village - Ramle. One new village.
The 1909 Encycloped Britannica withstand, the overwhelming evidence proves that the land was desolate, void, barren, devoid of population, and in desperate need of people. Twain, Volney, etc. had no political agenda when they wrote what they did. They had no reason to lie.
Anyway, my point is that I think the vast majority of Arabs in those areas would simply like the opportunity to rule themselves without an occupation Army or a thug like Arafat. The actual supporters of the terrorists number in the thousands, at most, with those actually willing to blow themselves up numbering under 1000. If there were hundreds of thousands or millions willing to blow themselves up, every Israeli would have long ago been killed in a wave of mass bombings. Even ten thousand terrorist Palestinians, each killing 10 Israelis (how hard would that be with an automatic rifle and a bomb for each???), would probably long ago have extracted a price in blood much higher than the vast majority of Israeli's are willing to bear. obviously, there are not millions of terrorists living next door to Israel.
And yes, the way to solve the problem is to set them adrift to run their own affairs under a democratic form of government. They'll soon be far too busy arguing with each other to be concerned about Israel.
No, no, no, no, a thousand times no.
To say that Israel was founded upon the terrorism of the Stern Gang is to warp the reality of Israeli history... and I think you know it.
The Stern Gang was a terror group. I will not deny that... but the Stern Gang was condemned by Ben Gurion. Hunted by the Zionists as well as the British. Ben Gurion did not support the Stern Gang. In fact, he knew that every time they acted, they hurt the legitimacy of the government.
To compare Israel with Palestine where terror is state sponsored and paid for is not true.
How is that Israeli land? When did Israel ever govern any of it with a civil administration within the past 2000 years? And last I checked, those areas are stil under defacto occupation. The IDF comes and goes into them at will to destroy the nests of terrorists it finds.
I've suggested this here, but don't expect it to get very far among those who want Israel to have everything. Personally, I think Israel ought to annex all the West Bank Jewish settlements contiguous to the 1967 border such as those at the top fo the Jordan valley in or along the freeway to Jerusalem (like they did to Jerusalem) and clear the isolated settlements out, and de-annex any Arab villages contiguous with Lebanon, the West Bank, or Gaza to those territories. Just pull up the border fence, move it to the new location (in or out of the 1967 border as the case may be), revoke the citizenship of the Arabs in de-accessed terrirtory, and declare the matter settled and final.
Perhaps it is an interesting though probably unanswerable question as to how many of those Arabs who migrated in 1880-1940 were of families who had migrated out during the previous 200 years of Turkish misrule?
Don't get me wrong, I agree there is no such thing as "Palestinians" as defined today. Its as ephemeral as most modern so-called nationalities (what is a Belgian? - there is no such people who go by that name, just Walloons and Flemings). But there certainly were native Arab inhabitants throughout the country. What's more, the Arabs always considered what we now call Syria, Jordan, Paelstine, Israel, and Lebanon to be one country called Syria. Its disengenuous to say that Arabs moving from Syria to Palestine in 1930 aren't legitimate inhabitants of Palestine because the British and French arbitrarily drew some lines on maps 10 years previous in dividing up what was one country. This is like claiming that Americans cannot move between different states within the US.
What is irrelevant is the origins 100 years ago of the people living there today. Most of the present inhabitants (Jewish and Arab) were born between the Jordan and the Sea. Its as much their homeland as any land of immigrants like Australia, the US, Canada, or S. Africa. That is the relevant point, not the origin of some Jews in Poland 50 or 80 years ago, or the origin of some Arabs in what is now Syria 50 or 80 years ago.
If Jews and Arabs living there today cannot live together within one state in that area, then they need to figure out a way to partition the land into a Jewish State and an Arab state to make as many people as possible happy. The only other solution is a continuation of the past 50 years of war and terror. The rest of the world does not view that as a viable option.
The problem with the present piss-process is that Israel is dealing with Arafat and his clows. Israel needs to form a structure for legitimate civilian leaders to arise among the Palestinians by democratic means with whom they can make an honorable settlement. Arafat will certainly never allow that to happen himself.
I am stating what those who came through the area did not lie when they called the land desolate, forsaken, broken-hearted, and in desperate need of population.
My argument is with Arafat who said that the land was "verdant, and supporting a thriving population." That simply is not true.
In 1947, the UN counted any Arab that had been effected by the War for Independence as indigenous population. These Arabs have grown into 5,000,000 who Arafat insists must be repatriated into Israel population.
This is a lie. Most of those Arabs who ended up in refugee camps were illegal immigrants and im-migrants from Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, and Egypt. There is overwhelming documentation that states that.
Its disengenuous to say that Arabs moving from Syria to Palestine in 1930 aren't legitimate inhabitants of Palestine because the British and French arbitrarily drew some lines on maps 10 years previous in dividing up what was one country. This is like claiming that Americans cannot move between different states within the US.
So now it's disegnenous to say that Arabs moving from Syria to Palestine in 1930 weren't illegal immigrants... What? Even the Syrian government agreed that they were illegal immigrants. As did the French who had the Syrian Mandate. So did the British. So did the League of Nations.
Most of the present inhabitants (Jewish and Arab) were born between the Jordan and the Sea.
So? Does that give a illegal in-migrant who migrated to Jaffa in 1936 to take a good paying job and take advantage of a health-care the right to call himself indigenous and demand that he has a right to return back to the house that he owned since time immemorial.
Does that give Arafat the right to demand that 5,000,000 indigenous people receive title to something they have no right to claim.
I have never said that there weren't Arabs in the Palestine mandate. I have never said that some of those Arabs who did own property.
I am stating the facts... the twisting of those facts by Arafat propaganda and the Arab demand that those 5,000,000's property be returned. Property that most of them can produce title to because most were just recent arrivals and not the owner of the land from time immemorial.
There was a provisional Israeli government in the land in the late 30's and 40's. Ben Gurion led it. The British allowed it full reign to conduct Jewish Affairs. This provisional government became the legitimate government in 1947.
Israel needs to form a structure for legitimate civilian leaders to arise among the Palestinians by democratic means with whom they can make an honorable settlement.
Israel has tried to do this, but was stopped by the first Bush Administration at Madrid. Israel keeps stating that they do not want to deal with the current Palestinian government, but the US, EU, UN, and Russia keep legitimizing the current Palestinian government and the Road Map says that it is with Arafat that Israel must deal. The only one who disagrees, fortunately, is the President. He says Arafat is gone!
Perhaps I missed the day when any Israeli land was ever given to an Arab???German terrirtory was given over to Poland after WWII in response to their war of aggression. Stalin's crimes do not erase this fact.
The price for starting wars of agression should always include the loss of terrirory, even for the Arabs.
Yes. Transjordan in 1922, the West Bank and Jerusalem prior to Independence in 1948, all of the Land surrendered in the Oslo folly, just to name a few instances.
Stalin gave the poles Silesia and Pomerania in return for stealing Galacia, Volhynia, etc. The Poles there were forcibly deported to the German lands.
The price for starting wars of agression should always include the loss of terrirory, even for the Arabs.
Again, I missed where the Germans and Poles in these areas had started a war of agression. The Nazi German government? Yes. The people? No. There was no celebrations by the whole people for starting WWII, and they certainly never voted on it.
Yes. Transjordan in 1922
I don't think there is any point in discussing anythign with your further. You and the other clowns who think that trans-Jordan is "Noble Jewish Land" because some Jews lived there 2000 years ago are welcome to come back to your rubber rooms anytime.
Unfortunately, the conditions necessary to force Palestinians to become "one with reality",will require more pressure than merely taking over Iraq . For starters, Syria will have to be forced out of Lebanon and defanged (regime change is good) , and the Saudis will have to be squeezed much tighter so they rein in the Wahabbis.
Otherwise, this latest Bush timetable will not work. IMO.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.