Posted on 04/07/2003 11:22:23 PM PDT by Avoiding_Sulla
FWIW, there are few Freepers more critical of Germany than I. Look at my posting history and you will see that I am telling the truth. But criticism has to be based on fact and objectivity.
I cannot know whether Grim's description of the audience reaction is accurate. But I highly doubt it when I read whoppers like this one
"Ask why Germany is in economic trouble and you'll seldom hear Germans blame themselves."
Wrong. Leftwing Germans (still a majority) blame their leaders (but don't want to give up any bennies), rightwing Germans blame the horrible socialist redistributionist system. Nothing unusual here, same as everywhere else in the world.
"The most common response is to blame foreigners, that is, Turkish "guest workers," immigrants from the former Iron Curtain countries, and Jews."
Wrong. It is true there is a great deal of resentment of foreigners, but not so much of foreign workers but of asylum seekers soaking up welfare. In this Germans understandably feel resentful. Germans do not blame Jews for their current economic woes. (Reparation payments to the dwindling number of Holocaust survivors are tiny and insignificant as a portion of the federal budget and have been that way for decades; not that anyone would be justified in complaining if they were higher.)
There is anti-Semitism but it largely presents itself as anti-Israel sentiment; unfortunately conservative Germans are not an exception in this respect. This new German anti-Semitism masquerading as anti-Zionism is revolting, and is one of the reasons why I hope to be out of Germany a year from today. However, there isn't going to be a new Hitler, and Germans won't be goosestepping down the Champs-Elysées again, nor will they be building extermination camps again.
Citing former German finance minister Oskar Lafontaine in support of his (conservative) argument is an example of intellectual dishonesty or at best slovenliness, since Lafontaine is an out-and-out Marxist. And so on.
Again, Germany is in a horrible mess of its own making, but Nazi ideology is not part of the mainstream, nor is it respected, nor does it have influence beyond the numbers of its adherents. Prager has it right.
It's part of the deepest held beliefs in me that race, blood, ethnicity, don't mean anything; values mean everything--love, values.
What a wonderful link! This guy is great; he has the same beliefs that I do. Years ago I came to the conclusion that we are all spirits encased in a body, and it is how we handle situations in this life that matters. What a great interview; it's long but well worth reading.
I very much like that quote of Viktor Frankel's, "There are only two races of people: the decent and the indecent." That about sums it up!
I was on a thread that dealt with that movie, The Piano, and the author (Grim?) said tha audience was laughing and carrying on at scenes of cruelty. My first thought, which I wrote, was that if that were true, people were uncomfortable at the vicious scenes. I've been at movies where during horrific scenes people laugh (usually teenage boys) I think because it is so disturbing and over the top to them, and that is how they cope. The author of the article implyed it was because the audience thought it was great to portray cruelty to Jews. I knew this couldn't be the case. Many people such as Asher would like to believe this though, and will believe nothing else even when confronted with evidence.
I meant what I said though; such a movie only serves as hateful propaganda. I'm just tired of movies and programs that bash people over the head with the idea, Jews= All Good, Gentiles= All Bad. This only serves to divide people even more, which perhaps is the intention.
And I can't see how the Germans could enjoy seeing such negative portrayals of their own people over and over again.
It reminds me of the movie "Mississippi Burning" that shows all white Southerners as stupid, bigoted one-dimensional characters, who want to do nothing but lynch black people. This is not true nor fair.
The producers of such movies have ulterior motives in my opinion.
I think the whole nazi regime was horrific and evil. They targeted people due to their ethnicity and were very cruel. They killed millions of Jews all over Europe along with others. I really think evil was unleashed at the time. Yes, many Germans became nazis, or SS guys. Other Germans did not like what was happening. Not all Germans are alike, just like not all Americans are alike. It was a tragedy all the way around, and only a sadistic person could find any good in it. I am not sadistic or a grouchy bully like many on FR seem to be these days.
I do have a problem with the many movies put out these days which depict white people or Germans or Southerners as being inherently evil. This feeds on peoples' tendencies to hate people who are different than they are, and as far as Holocaust movies go, we all know what happened, and to portray the cruelty over and over again only enrages people on both sides. Is there something wrong with healing and forgiveness? None of us were even alive back then. There have been many evil regimes since the beginning of time who have killed various ethnic groups, such as the Turks who killed Armenians at the beginning of the 20th century. Since there are few if no movies about this, it is not in peoples' conciousness. However, when people are bombarded with certain points over and over again, such as "All (fill in the blank) people are evil, because some or even many of their members went on a murderous rampage at some point in history, it can intensify their hatred for such people, even if they never experienced such evil themselves. People can be manipulated by the media.
A while ago I was thinking how the world was transformed during the 20th century because of the advent of mass transportation and mass media. This has caused many changes in our societies, bringing many people into contact with others as never before. It has also caused more cultural clashes. Now don't throw fits because you say this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, because I believe it does.
Okey Mr. Tictoc, if that made no sense, then I will try to say what I feel in a more simple way. The regime of Hitler was very cruel, and I can understand if modern-day Jews are skeptical of the intentions of Germans, or maybe even gentiles in general because of what happened. Even though it's been over 50 years ago, many Jews have grandparents who were put in camps and killed, so it is still a close subject to them. My grandfather was killed too. What concerns me is the hate is being kept alive.
Many gentiles think of Jews as a group of people who were percecuted in Germany. There is lots of paranoia about skinheads and neo-nazis. I have met a lot of people in my life, and I have never run across any such persons. I believe they are fringe groups, but the way the media focuses so much on that topic you would think that 50% of white people are skinheads. In fact I was unaware of the deep resentments that exist until about a year ago when I started posting on FR, and I would run across people such as A. who show such a seething hatred against gentiles. I think this is all very tragic, as they have a warped sense of reality in my estimation. Most gentiles think of Jews as regular nice people, if anything as studious, people who don't get drunk or commit crimes and such. At least that has been my experience growing up around them. The mother's love their children to pieces and love the children of their friends as well. This is only my personal experience.
I believe in forgiveness. If people never forgive, such as is customary in the Balkans, wars and blood fueds continue. It does no good to keep hatred alive. Read that link about Prager. He explains it very well.
It takes a person with strong character to forgive and have understanding that people are not perfect, and too often are inclined to do evil towards others. It's all throughout the OT and NT, and other religions speak of this as well. To carry grudges only hurts a person and those around him.
If I still make no sense to you, then I give up. I fail to see where I came off as such a hateful person to you. My point is keeping hatred alive does no good for anyone. Now I don't think you can argue with that.
After that encounter with Asher it really sunk in how there are some who really, really do hate others based on their DNA. It's disturbing to me but it's the reality. It is something humans need to strive to get over. So quit being a jerk and picking on me. I meant no harm and I think you are trying to pick a fight with me because you perceive me as being weak.
I don't know if it's this war that is putting people on edge, but I have noticed lately people on FR are picking more fights with one another and being rather disrespectful. They are also reading things into peoples' posts that are not there. I see it happening with lots of people on FR more than ever. Perhaps evil is being unleashed on the earth once again. Creepy.
Another beef I have is with those who through out remarks such as "You are liar", "You are naive and stupid". Just because someone doesn't know every detail about WWII doesn't mean they are stupid. I'm sure my knowledge in some areas surpasses yours. And don't think you can't learn from someone whom you perceive to be less intelligent than you.
Why do you misunderstand me so? Are you one of those angry persons? You say my problem is that when I hear of a movie that shows Nazi atrocities, I leap to the conclusion that Nazis=Germans. That is what I am complaining about, or WHINING about, that ever popular word, along with liar, stupid, and naive, and others that don't come to mind right now. Are you one of those catty women who feels threatened by women who may be attractive? Because you act a bit like that. Perhaps I should be calling you Mrs. Tictoc. If not I apologise.
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