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To: ZULU
True, Muslims "tolerated" Christians and Jews. This "toleration" meant relegation to a subclass status where the practitioners of those faiths were banned from carrying weapons, required to pay a special tax, prevented from making improvements to their houses of worship or building new ones, forbidden from having public demonstrations of faith, holding office, bring suit against a Muslim, and in other ways so suppressed that over the course of time the majority converted to Islam to escape a role in society that was degrading and oppressive and scarcely better than slavery.
You might want to look at the way Muslims were treated in europe in the middle ages. (If memory serves) They were not accorded any standing under the law.
At least according to Bernard Lewis in his book 'What went wrong?' (good book)

"But the present is not typical of Islam's long history; indeed, it may be the worst era in that entire history."

Hardly. The worst was when western civilization and Christiandom was fighting the Muslims at the Battle of Tours, not far from Paris in nortern France, after their invading, pillaging, raiding, raping, and enslaving columns had overrun all of Iberia, southern France, Sicily, Southerm Italy, North Africa, the Holy Land, most of Anatolia and were knocking at the gates of Constantinople. Or perhaps when Islamic naval forces were trying to seize the entire Mediterranean from the east and an Islamic army was encamped at the gates of Vienna.
From the point of view of Islam this is the worst of time, and has been for the last couple of hundred years. At that time the Islamic world had a much higher state of civilization than Christendom (but as the old saying goes That was then this is now)

I have seen nothing of the sort in the past or present to indicate any significant effort or movement on the part of most Muslims to do so, and I am not optomistic that they will do so in the future. But we can always pray for miracles. In the meantime, we should stay alert and keep our swords sharpened.
Now I grant you a person has to do some hunting, but they are out there. And it does give me hope. As IMO the world is just getting to small for such a large portion of the worlds population to remain mired in the 14th century.

Sufism, a form of mystical Islam, is perhaps the least violent of all forms of Islam. However, as you point out, his message of non-violence has not been well received by American Muslims, for the most part adherents of Sunni Wahhabism. By the way, the Wahhabists have done a superb job of totally exterminating Sufism in Saudia Arabia, the Wahhabi stronghold and origin point. So even being a Muslim is no protection against Islamic aggression.
Oh No was we all know Muslims are forbidden to attack other Muslims!
< /sarcam>

365 posted on 04/07/2003 8:20:04 AM PDT by Valin (Age and deceit beat youth and skill)
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To: Valin
"You might want to look at the way Muslims were treated in europe in the middle ages."

True. On the other hand, Islam attacked Christianity from its inception, Christianity did not attack Islam.

"From the point of view of Islam this is the worst of time, and has been for the last couple of hundred years."

True. Thanks to our modern weaponry, Muslims are frustrated at their inability to continue raping, plundering, pillaging, and oppressing unbelievers, except perhaps in Nigeria, southern Sudan, etc.

"At that time the Islamic world had a much higher state of civilization than Christendom (but as the old saying goes That was then this is now)"

Again, true. But Islam's greatest contribution to civization was transferring the knowledge of the Ancients to western Europe, not originating much themselves. Besides, if you read an old book by a Frenchman, no less, Henri Prienne, called "Mohammad and Charlemagne", Prienne postulates that the "Dark Ages" in Europe were mainly brought about by Islamic control of the sea routes of the Mediterranean through their use of corsair pirates and the Islamic seizure of Mediterranean islands like Sicily. This effectively cut western Europe off from a true source of the knowledge of the ancients - Byzantium, which the Muslims proceeded to destroy incrementally.


"As IMO the world is just getting to small for such a large portion of the worlds population to remain mired in the 14th century."

I agree with you, but my last great hope was Turkey, and when the chips were down, the Turks demonstrated that:
a) Islamic ties come first; and,
b) that old spirit of the wastes of central Asia is still alive and well in Turkey, and, as they did with the Armenians, the Turks would very much prefer to exterminate Kurds rather than reach a living accomodation with them, even if it means screwing their infidel friends the Americans.

Oh No was we all know Muslims are forbidden to attack other Muslims!
< /sarcam>

Did you ever read that among the Ottoman Turks there was no rule of succession. Consequently, when the Sultan died, there was a battle to see which of his many sons (the horney devils had many wives and concubines)would succeed the dead leader. Competitors were strangled to death with a bowstring because it was not right for a Muslim to shed the blood of another Muslim. Great folks the Turks. Ask the Kurds, Armenians and Greeks.

368 posted on 04/07/2003 10:13:55 AM PDT by ZULU
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