How France blocked U.S. in Ankara

New York Sun ^ | 26 March 2003 | Michael Ledeen

[happygrl]

You two Greeks take endless delight in taking potshots against a long term friendly nation (to the U.S.) like Turkey.

Let's talk about Greece for a change, and all the ways they have proved their friendship with the U.S. NOT!

[Publius6961]

The irony is that within a generation France will be an occupied country.
And good riddance.

[Destro]

Ok specifics. According to this -ahem- expose (can I still use Frnech words?) France made Turkey do what it did. May I see what evidence exists for such a linkage? Policy paper? Meetings of diplomats?

[Destro]

I implied the brake happened in the 60s.

[Destro]

meltdown of what? -you know me better than that. I am still against the jihad and for the removal of Saddam. We don't need half baked explanations linking France to why diplomacy with Turkey failed.

[happygrl]

I read this article. It wanders around, trying to make points all over the landscape. The author is uncertain as to what he/she is trying to say, and does not bring any clarity to the issue he/she is trying to discuss.

Maybe it's because Europeans are confused about which way they want their future to go.

[Destro]

I am Greek in the sense that all members of Western Civilization are members of Hellenic civilization.

Secondly, the Greeks hostility to America came as a direct result of America's embrace of Turkey. The USA has been allied with Turkey since the 50s but Greece and the USA have been together since the War against the Turkish Barbary pirates. In fact America has fought two wars so far against Turkey, the war against the Barbary pirates (pirates under the Turkish flag) and WW1.

The fact that the USA has supported Islamic peoples over Christian ones in the Balkans and in Cyprus is the reason for such hostility.

Turkey was allied with America because of her fear of Russia and not because she has love for America. Self interest rules in all things. While Greece and Cyprus have asked for zero dollars cash for base and overfilights from us for Iraq, Turkey-now that the fear of the Russians is gone turns her back on us.

[dennisw]

Your stuff about Trotskyites and Neo-Cons is 10% true. You are getting carried away by it. According to Pat Buchanan I must be a Neo-Con since I like our war on Iraq. Yet I was against our war on the Serbs and other actions you claim Neo-Cons were prominent in...but were not. Yes, Neos back Turkey (I admit this also helps Israel) and supported our bombing the Serbs, but what else?

[Destro]

Our positions are the same. But what makes this (and only this) article accurate? I find it speculation-and my point-of course rammed in with my heavy worded sledgehammer style (ok so I am bad at finesse) is that it is based more on neo-con "think" more than anything else. Let us win this war quickly and chain down these Muslim nations before they can rise aganst us.

[Destro]

By the way, I love your anti-jihad posts. But when it comes to Christians at least the Muslim Arabs and Persians have allowed the Christian population to be survive at a certain minimum % of the population after their eradication programs. The Turks went for full eradication.

[tiki]

It has been obvious for some time that the bulk of our disgust should be reserved for the French and after that, the Germans. Turkey was being bullied just as Saddam bullied Iraq.

[Mihalis]

...Turkey was allied with America because of her fear of Russia...

And for the love of $$$$.

[Destro]

EXACTLY.

[eleni121]

Greece allied itself with the west in both World Wars and throughout the modern era.

Turkey? NOT!
And now that Turks do not fear the russians they are showing their true Islamic colors and siding with the beast of Baghdad.
Greece was subjugated by the Muslim Turks for 400 years and the west looked away as millions of Christians in the Balkans (even up to slick Willie's time when the Serbian people suffered under both the Communists and the Clinton/Albright bombs) neglected, avoided, undermined the hopes of the people. And still even though very few had bothered to help the suffering of these people under the hideous Islamic yoke, Greeks were willing to lose hundreds of thousands fighting both great wars and a civil war in which the democracy loving Greek people defeated a Communist uprising.
Yes, Greece at present is dominated by left leaning Euro Socialist bunch of fools (the reasons for this may be obvious to some-not going into it here), but Greeks like others, although temporarily led astray are firm believers in the free market and democracy. Look at the US - we voted in Clinton for 8 years!

[rmlew]

I implied the brake happened in the 60s.

Not if you claim that neo-cons idolized LBJ.

[rmlew]

The Turks went for full eradication.

For 1000 years, Christians and Jews lived under the Turks.

There was ethnic cleansing in 1922, but Greeks also expelled Turks.

[Light Speed]

The article is Russki...maybe it does flow in Russian..and have some clarity..but I agree with you..its kinda all over the place.

Russian media is interesting in that the hint of trouble is forwarded in a theme...then a subtle..."We may participate in this..and maybe not".

There is a rift within NATO...this is an exploitable reality ....one that jilted partners might embrace.

Germany,France and Russia may use political trac to entangle Washington....keep America in the Tyrant role in the Euro media stream.

[Destro]

The Turks are, well Turks. They were not as organized or as speedy as the Germans.

[happygrl]

Yes, those were some of the points that I was able to extract from this piece.

Perhaps Russian writers are still writing nuanced pieces as a way to cover the writers' personal bases in case the tide turns (as their history suggests it might). That way they (the writers) can argue for themselves from a variety of positions in order to save their necks.

Freedom can be a difficult reality to live in when one has grown up in the terror of totalitarianism.