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Libertarians Join Liberals in Challenging Sodomy Law
NYTimes ^ | March 19, 2003 | LINDA GREENHOUSE

Posted on 03/19/2003 12:48:02 AM PST by RJCogburn

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To: HumanaeVitae
In so doing, the inhabitants of that society agreed to behave according to certain norms to preserve the order.

For instance, the people in posts of government authority agreed that they could not simply pander to the will of the mob, but rather must excersize only those powers explicitly available to them within the bounds of the protections of personal privacy and liberty set forth in the law.

There, was that so difficult to comprehend?

161 posted on 03/19/2003 10:43:51 AM PST by steve-b
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To: jimt
I think they missed the part about it not infringing on others' rights, which is the only legitimate reason to criminalize anything.

I missed that part. How do you justify that idea?

162 posted on 03/19/2003 10:44:29 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: george wythe
A man is allowed to perform cunnilingus, but a woman is not allowed to perform cunnilingus.

You may have identified why it will be struck down, but not whether or not it should be struck down.

I have no problem with that kind of duality. Can you marry your dog? Why not? It's your dog! "It's not fair that people get to only marry the opposite sex, but I can't marry Sparky..."

163 posted on 03/19/2003 10:44:57 AM PST by HumanaeVitae
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To: HumanaeVitae
You'd be surprised, freeee, at how much Marxism and Randian libertarianism have in common.

Sure I would. Humor me with an example, if you could.

Libertarians believe people are naturally good

No I don't. I believe people are a mixed sort, some good, some bad.

"Why shouldn't everyone have a right to have a nuclear bomb?

Oh, that old canard. It's been dispelled on this forum ad infinitum, but I'll have another go at it.

You have a right to own a weapon, but not to initiate force with it. For example, you can own a gun, but you can't point it at anyone. Even if you don't pull the trigger, by pointing it you have threatened initial force against another , and that is a violation of rights.

A nuke, by its very existence is akin to a pointed gun. Everyone within its range is subject to the threatened initial force similar to a pointed gun. As such, one has no right to a nuke.

Next.....?

164 posted on 03/19/2003 10:45:25 AM PST by freeeee
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To: u-89
Without morals government will have to control us so therefore we must have government enforce the moral code to save us from- er, ah, government control.

Nice try, but what I said was control yourself or be controlled. It's that simple. Those of you that don't want to control your sexual urges are begging for government help.

165 posted on 03/19/2003 10:45:34 AM PST by Dataman
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To: Roscoe
There is a difference between sodomy laws that apply to both men and women, and sodomy laws that apply to only women.

For instance, Florida sodomy laws make cunnilungus illegal for both men and women. Therefore, no 14th Amendment violation.

In contrast, Texas sodomy laws make cunnilingus illegal for women only.

Florida sodomy law is constitutional, Texas sodomy law is not.

166 posted on 03/19/2003 10:45:54 AM PST by george wythe
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To: Aquinasfan
Such an act is obviously opposed to the natural order.

Nonsense. If an act is opposed to the natural order of the universe, then attempts to perform that act will simply fail. For instance, it is contrary to the natural order of the universe for me to jump out the window and fly like Superman, and if I attempt it I will instead fall to the ground.

167 posted on 03/19/2003 10:46:13 AM PST by steve-b
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To: steve-b
The basis of totalitarian philosophy is the notion that the limits of state power are set by no principles, but only by the political prudentials of the moment.

That's true, but what does this statement have to do with the discussion?

168 posted on 03/19/2003 10:46:39 AM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: george wythe
here is a difference between sodomy laws that apply to both men and women

The old same sex marriage argument. Liberal and Libertarians really are in bed together.

169 posted on 03/19/2003 10:47:30 AM PST by Roscoe
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To: HumanaeVitae
Tell you what: why don't all the sex perverts, flamers, whoremongers, drug addicts, etc. everyone that doesn't like the "Victorian Moral Standards" of people like yours truly find a nice plot of land, and we social conservatives will do the same.

That's a key idea behind the US Constitution. All states would decide those things for themselves. People would vote with their feet according to the results obtained.

But that's not the case anymore. States and communities can no longer decide those matters for themselves. A central authority has usurped local control by force. Which do you prefer, the central model or the local model?

170 posted on 03/19/2003 10:49:55 AM PST by freeeee
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To: HumanaeVitae
You'd be surprised, freeee, at how much Marxism and Randian libertarianism have in common.

BWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Libertarians believe people are naturally good

Nonsense. Statists believe that people are naturally good (or, to return to a point you never did get around to answering, that the "people" in government positions are really space aliens or something). Libertarians believe that people cannot be trusted with anything beyond a bare minimum of political power.

171 posted on 03/19/2003 10:50:13 AM PST by steve-b
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To: Aquinasfan
One act is ordered to pleasing one's spouse, the other is orderd to pleasing a member of the same sex. The latter is unnatural.

That's your opinion, not the opinion of the Supreme Court.

Furthermore, I would suggest to you that many Christians consider cunnilingus between married people "unnatural."

Therefore, your opinion that cunnilingus is not unnatural under certain conditions differ from the Christian position through centuries.

172 posted on 03/19/2003 10:50:31 AM PST by george wythe
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To: george wythe
Americans of Latino descent have higher rates of diabetes and obesity than Americans of Northern European descent.

Therefore, a law against the behavior of buying junk food could be enacted, making illegal for Hispanics to buy junk food.

Of course not. Latinos cannot help that they were born Latinos. Homosexuals can help that they engage in homosexual behavior. The law is about behavior.

173 posted on 03/19/2003 10:50:56 AM PST by HumanaeVitae
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To: Aquinasfan
Such behavior harms the common good (and the consenting sinners).

The first part is nonsense, "common good" is a matter of opinion. The second part is none of your business.

All sin does. And law should be ordered to promoting the common good.

I think the "common good" would be served if you were not allowed to speak. See how that works?

I have never attempted to justify so called evil behavior. Straw man.

However, such a law would make it possible to "clean out" public bathrooms, etc.

There are laws against certain sexual behavior public, homo and hetro. No sodomy laws are needed for this.

Any of various forms of sexual intercourse held to be unnatural or abnormal, especially anal intercourse or bestiality.

Define abnormal so everyone agrees about what it is. Your interpretation is different than mine.

When the act is "finished" orally, yes, it represents sodomy. Such an act is obviously opposed to the natural order.

So you are in favor of laws prohibition oral sex between man and wife. Good luck.

So God requires that we don't punish evil acts?

Bizzare leap. Strawman. Define evil.

174 posted on 03/19/2003 10:51:28 AM PST by Protagoras
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To: Aquinasfan; Protagoras
Protagoras wrote:
Oral sex with your wife would be defined as sodomy and if you think that it should be criminalized you are on a different level than me.

To which you replied:
When the act is "finished" orally, yes, it represents sodomy. Such an act is obviously opposed to the natural order.

But when the act is "started" orally, is it then natural? This would seem to me to be splitting hairs, as it were. Either it is natural or it is not. If the act is unnatural, no rearrangement will change it. What does it matter in what order natural acts are completed? What business is it of yours if my wife ends up on top? Where is the compelling state interest to keep her below me in my own home?

175 posted on 03/19/2003 10:53:46 AM PST by Liberal Classic (Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentis telum est.)
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To: Aquinasfan
However, "finishing" the act orally is unnatural.

Before long, these scholastical distinctions are going to end in the conclusion that the use of clockwise tongue strokes is acceptable, but that the use of anticlockwise tongue strokes is unnatural (or vice versa in the Southern Hemisphere).

176 posted on 03/19/2003 10:53:46 AM PST by steve-b
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To: george wythe
Furthermore, I would suggest to you that many Christians consider cunnilingus between married people "unnatural."

George, how many heterosexuals engage in sex acts in public places? Not many. Homos do it all the time. Prudentially, we can say that homosexual behavior leads to public homosexual behavior, which leads to disease etc. Thus it can be regulated.

177 posted on 03/19/2003 10:53:46 AM PST by HumanaeVitae
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To: Roscoe
Nazis and Bosco boys are in bed together, and that is a really frightening thought.

You spend a lot of time thinking about what people do in bed. HMMMMM,,,

178 posted on 03/19/2003 10:53:57 AM PST by Protagoras
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To: Aquinasfan
The basis of totalitarian philosophy is the notion that the limits of state power are set by no principles, but only by the political prudentials of the moment.

That's true, but what does this statement have to do with the discussion?

Since you have repeatedly insisted that the only grounds upon which government power is to be limited are grounds of political prudentiality, I should think that the relevance of the statement is painfully obvious.

179 posted on 03/19/2003 10:54:56 AM PST by steve-b
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To: HumanaeVitae
George, how many heterosexuals engage in sex acts in public places? Not many.

ROTFLMAO, you need to get out of the house more. Just about the only sex act I haven't seen taking place in public is homosexual sex.

180 posted on 03/19/2003 10:55:33 AM PST by Protagoras
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