THE CONFLICT WITH IRAQ [PRINCE OF PERSIA WARNING ABT TIMING]

THE CONFLICT WITH IRAQ by Bob Jones & Paul Keith Davis (http://www.bobjones.org/articles/The%20Conflict%20With%20Iraq.htm)

Over the past several weeks, there has been continual conversation, both publicly and within Christian circles, concerning the issue of Iraq and the appropriate spiritual approach on this crucial matter. It continues to be our belief, established through visions, dreams and communications from the Lord while in prayer, that it would be premature for our nation to take Iraq to full war.

Although we are presently experiencing skirmishes and minor confrontations, as opposed to a full-blown war, time remains for the circumstances to be altered by the Kingdom of light, through prayer.

As we have stated in prior articles and newsletters, this is predominantly a spiritual issue and therefore can be influenced through prayer, as was the presidential election. It is our belief that the ancient spirit identified as the Prince of Persia (as described in the book of Daniel) is attempting to withstand a divine purpose as he did with Daniel. In Daniel 10 we discover the prophet seeking the Lord for insight and direction when he encountered an angelic messenger who was withstood by the prince of Persia for 21 days.

This prevailing evil spirit is presently attempting to withstand divine mandates from reaching the place of their fulfillment. This is evidenced in the elevated terrorism of the last two years and the conflict with Iraq. It is our belief that a war with Iraq will hinder the full birthing of the revelation of Kingdom realities in this hour.

Furthermore, the Holy Spirit has revealed to us and a number of other prophetic voices, that a preemptive strike with Iraq would substantially affect the nation of Israel and adversely impact our economy. Most important of all, it has been our revelation that the "ark of the Covenant" would not go with our armies. This is strictly a symbolic expression to indicate that this war would not have the blessings of Heaven as did the Gulf War in the early '90s.

Clearly, that confrontation had incredible results with very little loss of life on the part of our Armed Forces. Many reports are on record of incredible grace and intervention by the Lord throughout this encounter. That was more the result of the Lord's blessings than our superior military enforcement. We have also received reports from other reliable ministry sources that there is a remnant Christian Church in Iraq who would suffer substantially in the event of war or the forceable overthrow of Saddam.

The record is clear, the actions of Saddam Hussein are cruel, evasive and ungodly. His actions cannot go unchecked. However, a war in Iraq will affect many more than just this one individual and his immediate leadership circle. There are spiritual ramifications with multiple implications. According to the example of Moses, Amos, and others, intercession can change pronunciations of judgments and adversarial designs.

It is our firm belief that we should continue to intercede and ask the Lord for His intervention in dealing with Saddam without having to involve war.

We believe we have the authority to pray for the removal of his evil leadership and regime by means other than war. Now is not the time to reduce our prayers, but increase them. War at this time would have multiple detrimental effects upon our nation, naturally and spiritually, along with Israel.

Our earnest prayer should be for peace rather than war. In our revelations, we are continuing to see the call of the intercessors to take their place on the wall to petition Heaven for divine intervention. Until the matter has actually come to full fruition, there is always time for intervention. We cannot take a passive position at this on this critical issue.

On your walls, O Jerusalem, I have appointed watchmen; all day and all night they will never keep silent. You who remind the LORD, take no rest for yourselves; And give Him no rest until He establishes and makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth. (Isaiah 62:67)

This is strictly the way we have seen this issue. There seems to be many justifiable political reasons why war would be appropriate. However, if the position of restraint is correct, we must trust the Lord's wisdom and the revelation He gives.

This is not necessarily my human preference at all.

The dilly-dallying around has felt very frustrating. Have wanted to get it done already yet!

Nevertheless, I do think there is SOMETHING to this Prince of Persia demonic stronghold. Sadddddammnnn and sons are toooooooooooo evil to be THAT evil on their own ingenuity. Putting people feet first in a shredder seems to me to take a demonic level of evil.

Consequently, certainly The Church must send the worshippers ahead of the soldiers--at least in the spiritual realm--through prayer and worship in our prayer closets and corporately.

AND I STRONGLY BELIEVE our President would be WELL ADVISED to demonstrate creative, dramatic, even extreme humility publically and to call the Nation to 1-3 days of prayer and fasting before attacking Iraq. Sufficient contrition, repentance, humility could well turn God's hand to our benefit in all this.

Otherwise, I believe the prophetic voices are right--we will experience complications and suffering quite beyond anything otherwise expected by people without a spiritual perspective.

OK, flame away if you are addicted to such. The flames will be unlikely to alter my perceptions or convictions on the matter.

Prayerful folk,

PLEASE remember these issues in prayer whenever Holy Spirit calls them to mind between now and attacking Iraq.

No flames at all. I just want to step in and say that, as a spiritual but not religious person, you shouldn't be afraid of appealing to people's spirituality. Not at all.

Here comes the but. :-)

BUT...I don't now how I'm reading this...but my feelings are that America is a force for good; that Americans are *good people* -- so are MOST people, really -- and although acts of contrition would be appropriate, I just don't think they're going to "convince" the Almighty, whatever form you worship him in, to change His ideas on matters. I tend to believe in a Divine Plan, a Grand Order...which means this was factored into the Divine Plan a long time ago.

Bush should pray because praying is where he gets his strength, and he's going to need strength, strength to lead us, and strength to explain to the Americans and the world -- with moral & spiritual clarity -- what we're doing and why we're doing it.

Anyway, understand I'm not trying to take issue with you here or be divisive, but...if God exists, and he's not on our side in this one...then I don't believe God exists. ;-)

I'd also point out that a lot of well-meaning people at the Vatican silently let Hitler get away with...well, murder. This is just a tangent regarding the Pope's stand on the war.

The President could call for people to be humble in whatever way they choose, but some people celebrate by feasting, or burning incest...he shouldn't advocate one particular religion (besides the basic Judeo-Christian *idea* that our Constitution is based in) over any other; that's why the Establishment Clause is there (and not, as liberals think, to force God out of our schools -- urgh, I hate that one).

But I'm with you in spirit...war should be dealt with seriously. I think we are doing just that. Concentrating on preserving civilian lives in hours of planning and strategy sessions seems to me to be...just as good as fasting or praying.

Okay, this is a rambling post, but I tend to get that way when trying to figure out my own spirituality. Although it should encourage you that an agnostic (and by agnostic, I mean, I believe in a God, but I also believe that that God is beyond my comprehension) agrees with you and is comforted that his President IS a man of quiet faith.

I guess that's my problem. Faith to me seems to lose its value if you're really *loud* about it. National fasting and all that would almost seem an act of hubris. No one should have to be called upon to think/pray/wish/hope for Good Things, cuz if you need to be TOLD to do it by someone, it loses all its meaning. I think that's the piece of sand that's forming this pearl of discomfort. ;-)

Thank you for the kind words and the thoughtful post. I was raised an atheist and, strange as this sounds, it seemed to AID in my "spiritual quest", if you will. I simply cannot believe that everything is "random". If it's random, it's the most amazing, beautiful random I've ever seen, which means there's a logic to the very randomness...

One of the best and longest conversations I had about this was with Jack Quinlan, who was ALMOST Governor of MA way back in the Volpe days (he's now retired). I'm 27 and still wet behind the ears (and smarting from having my industry -- tech -- disappear from under my feet), but I have tried my whole life to be open to as much as I can. I grew up in MA (liberal bastion), went to school at UC Berkeley (liberal bastion), everyone wanted me to keep going my existentialist route, but eventually...I stopped. Anyway, the conversation with Jack was truly fascinating. I bring him up only because he's the best example I can think of, that I personally know, of a truly devoutly religious "philosopher" of sorts. He's a strict Catholic, a GREAT guy...this is kinda why I struck up the conversation (my father, a retired political consultant, was in the room at the time and I thought he might faint, since I was touching on one of those things you don't talk about in polite company -- religion and politics), I wanted to see what made him tick. Anyway, he was more than open about discussing his faith, Catholicism in general, current problems in the local diocese (this was pre-scandal time)...it's men (and women) like him, or GW Bush, or yourself, that make me stop, pause, and think. Not even debate; just think.

My mother had a cerebral hemorrhage last August and, had I not had the little faith I've managed to build up in me, I would have lost it. Instead, the faith floated to the surface -- I didn't think God would save her; I didn't think God would take her; I had no thoughts on that -- I just felt comforted by reading the bible, praying, and trusting that there was a design -- His Will be done, and so on. The comment I made about praying for strength came from that -- I prayed for strength. The words were for my mother, but...it felt like a selfish act, like I was doing this just to make myself feel better (short of just reciting the Lord's Prayer). After all, if it HAD been her time, it would have been audacious of me to ask the Almighty to change His plan...and so on. But -- it was much that thought -- who am *I* to question what God does or does not do in this situation? Was I there at the beginning? I think not. :p

On a side note, my mother made a miracle recovery and is almost 100% back to normal. So maybe the prayers did work...I just don't know...maybe it was just the way it was supposed to *be*.

I'm still wrestling with it. I'd pop up on more religious threads on here, but...er...there are a few people out there who give ANY religion a bad name. Afraid of getting bashed by those folks on a subject that is very important to me and that I'm trying to wrestle through (I'll get there, don't worry :p), etc. Mostly I can't stomach it when someone tells me that someone I know who is a good person is going to hell because they picked the wrong flavor of religion, while a death row inmate who accepts Jesus at the second of his death gets in. That, I just can't accept. Mind you, I'm only talking about a small minority of people who bash me about that, but on an issue like this, I need free thought and zero flaming/bashing/etc., so I shy away from the religious threads.

I hope my prayers DO make a difference. I also hope beyond hope that I am living, in some degree, in the way that God wants me to. I really don't know what to do; I've read the Bible several times and I try to merge that with what I intuitively *know* is right and go from there.

Anyway, to sum up, I like it when I'm forced to think about my spirituality, and your posts have done just that, so thank you. :-)

Attitude and tone in the message you don't have to thank me for. I'm actually getting a tad ticked at some of the rudeness that's popping up lately on FR -- especially when threads fracture apart over religion (the original Elizabeth Smart thread did that last night, it was awful, I tried to stand in the middle and post some things I thought might calm people down, but...massive infighting anyway, to the extent that the Admin Mod pulled the thread).

I have no idea if I'm a great person to live with. My roomate, who is one of those jack*sses who's read "a little bit" (you know what I mean, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing", and so on) is just discovering such choice quotes as "opiate of the masses" and blather like that. Although I'm NOT letting him get away with just tossing those things out these days, I'm making him stop & think (I can seem to do that to him if I take long enough). The most important thing I've learned living with a roommate, though, is that I just have to let stuff go sometimes. He might be ticked some night and rip into me with insults, but I have no idea how his day at work went or what's prompting it, so I will let him vent, stay away, and then try to find out what's wrong with him later.

Thanks again for the kind words and the chance to further wrestle with the Big Questions.

Best,
CWL

GWARSH!!!

You humble me with your gracious and wonderful words.

You strike me as much more mature and a much wiser, more perceptive and balanced saint than I thought at first.

I know 65 year old pastors without your maturity. Not to let it go to your head, mind you!

Perhaps you've been put in touch with MERE CHRISTIANITY by C.S. Lewis.

His Space Trilogy--Perelandria sp? etc. is also a worthy read as is most anything else by him. THE PROBLEM OF PAIN comes to mind.

I concur so thoroughly with what you've said, I don't know much of anything to respond specifically to except to say AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!

And I suspect in my univ. days, I'd have considered you a great roommate. Though you might have had second thoughts.

I had a precious Japanese Hawaiian roommate. Our desks were opposite the door perpendicular against the windows and facing the walls against the walls on opposite window corners. I could be sitting at my desk with my back to his. He could come into the room from being out, sit down at his desk and begin to study having said nothing more than hi, if that. And he would know that I knew what he was thinking. That became intolerable for him after a year and a half, sadly. I've even lost track of him.

Probably I didn't learn early enough to let ENOUGH go. You're ahead of my learning curve at your age.

I don't really expect the rabid, narrow, rigid biased types hereon to alter their tiny, tidy arrogant positions much at all. But I do often enough feel that their blackwashing silly assertions need SOMEONE to stand up and be counted on this or that--for the sake of the lurkers, if nothing else.

I just consider myself a very flawed fellow struggler attempting to Love God wholly and my neighbors & others as myself . . . to do unto others . . .

I wouldn't wish my training program over 56 years on anyone. But God has known best and has rescued me from myself plenty often.

I do know that seeking after more of Christ's capacity to Love, more humility and more patience are all akin. One gets pushed through the manure spreader backwards repeatedly; dumped in vinegar; hung out to dry; ground to sub-atomic powder; all but blown to the 4 winds and agonizingly slowly reconstituted to begin the process again . . . with lots of other sorts of refiner's fires in between.

Mercifully, His Love, His Sacrifice is worth it.

Sometimes I moan that I'd prefer some relief here rather than added glory in eternity. But I know God know's best and that I'd likely feel quite otherwise once I landed in eternity.

It's an awesome and humbling blessing and answer to prayer that I may have played any small part in fostering constructive thought on your part. It makes it worth it all.

Yes, certainly our prayers make a difference. Though it's probably His mercy to shield us from full knowledge about how much of a difference. Pride is so deadly.

That He delighest to give us ANY PART in the affairs of the world or even of our own lives is an awesome picture of His Grace, Love and desire for intimacy with us.

He certainly doesn't NEED our 'help' at all. Quite the contrary! Sometimes, He probably spends a fair amount of energy protecting us from our own prayers prayed in ignorance or whatever. Though on that score, I'm super thankful for the option of praying "In The Spirit," in tongues as I can at least be confident HOLY SPIRIT KNOWS how best to pray; how best to put the best meaning to my humble gibberish--far better than my own even 'best' 'eloquence.' I don't see that as the complicated thing some make it. Certainly God is not going to force anyone's mouth to pray His words--except perhaps in extremely rare situations. Far better that we humble ourselves by in faith risking the 'gibberish' and in faith trust Holy Spirit to put the best meaning of our heart cries to the sounds in concert with God's will. So, that's why I pray mostly that way. Not sure why I got off on THAT!

Interestingly, even my human relations job in the U.S. Navy the last half of my 4 years was full of liberals--though ran by Chaplains. Afterwards, my San Diego PhD program was certainly full of liberals. I was the token a lot of things it seems, in both settings. I suppose it toughened my faith. Also taught me that I didn't need to be as big an arse as they were quite so often or quite so much. I probably could learn more on that score.

There's a lot of evidence that the dark is getting darker and the light getting lighter as we rush to the fulfillment of so many prophecies and history as we know it.

It appears that there are two opposing moves afoot. God is calling all who truly Love Him and truly seek to follow Him to abandon man's religious system in a growing list of ways including at least denominationalism. How He will end up setting up THE CHURCH UNIVERSAL IN HIS IMAGE AND GOVERNMENT, His style, way, manner, structure--HIS EMPHASIS ON RELGIAIONSHIP etc. remains to be seen. I suspect it will be BOTH looser and tighter than most expect--as contradictory as that may seem and be.

AND satan seems determined to use the man's/earthly/world system of RELIGION is busy bringing about an syncretistic homoginization of all religions into one world religion. Of course that will end up in worshipping satan but all seem blind to that in the wings, so far.

Anyway--it will be interesting to see those two trends evolve.

I usually encourage people to find a church or at least a home group where people are LOVING, REAL, KIND, VULNERABLE, NOT TOO PROUD AND WHO EARNESTLY SEEK TO READ THE WORD AND FOLLOW IT WITH GOD'S HELP AS BEST THEY CAN.

The perfect church is hiding in Heaven somewhere, I guess. Ain't found one here. Though I do expect CHRIST HIMSELF to by His Spirit perfect us AND His Church--guess that would follow given that we are His Church--increasingly close to totally as we draw closer to the end of history as we know it.

Anyway--rambling on--your post was a jug of water in a dry land; good news from a distant loved one--a real timely encouragement.

THANKS. GOD'S BEST TO YOU.

I'll send you my email by FREEPMAIL.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.