Replies

Thank you for the kind words and the thoughtful post. I was raised an atheist and, strange as this sounds, it seemed to AID in my "spiritual quest", if you will. I simply cannot believe that everything is "random". If it's random, it's the most amazing, beautiful random I've ever seen, which means there's a logic to the very randomness...

One of the best and longest conversations I had about this was with Jack Quinlan, who was ALMOST Governor of MA way back in the Volpe days (he's now retired). I'm 27 and still wet behind the ears (and smarting from having my industry -- tech -- disappear from under my feet), but I have tried my whole life to be open to as much as I can. I grew up in MA (liberal bastion), went to school at UC Berkeley (liberal bastion), everyone wanted me to keep going my existentialist route, but eventually...I stopped. Anyway, the conversation with Jack was truly fascinating. I bring him up only because he's the best example I can think of, that I personally know, of a truly devoutly religious "philosopher" of sorts. He's a strict Catholic, a GREAT guy...this is kinda why I struck up the conversation (my father, a retired political consultant, was in the room at the time and I thought he might faint, since I was touching on one of those things you don't talk about in polite company -- religion and politics), I wanted to see what made him tick. Anyway, he was more than open about discussing his faith, Catholicism in general, current problems in the local diocese (this was pre-scandal time)...it's men (and women) like him, or GW Bush, or yourself, that make me stop, pause, and think. Not even debate; just think.

My mother had a cerebral hemorrhage last August and, had I not had the little faith I've managed to build up in me, I would have lost it. Instead, the faith floated to the surface -- I didn't think God would save her; I didn't think God would take her; I had no thoughts on that -- I just felt comforted by reading the bible, praying, and trusting that there was a design -- His Will be done, and so on. The comment I made about praying for strength came from that -- I prayed for strength. The words were for my mother, but...it felt like a selfish act, like I was doing this just to make myself feel better (short of just reciting the Lord's Prayer). After all, if it HAD been her time, it would have been audacious of me to ask the Almighty to change His plan...and so on. But -- it was much that thought -- who am *I* to question what God does or does not do in this situation? Was I there at the beginning? I think not. :p

On a side note, my mother made a miracle recovery and is almost 100% back to normal. So maybe the prayers did work...I just don't know...maybe it was just the way it was supposed to *be*.

I'm still wrestling with it. I'd pop up on more religious threads on here, but...er...there are a few people out there who give ANY religion a bad name. Afraid of getting bashed by those folks on a subject that is very important to me and that I'm trying to wrestle through (I'll get there, don't worry :p), etc. Mostly I can't stomach it when someone tells me that someone I know who is a good person is going to hell because they picked the wrong flavor of religion, while a death row inmate who accepts Jesus at the second of his death gets in. That, I just can't accept. Mind you, I'm only talking about a small minority of people who bash me about that, but on an issue like this, I need free thought and zero flaming/bashing/etc., so I shy away from the religious threads.

I hope my prayers DO make a difference. I also hope beyond hope that I am living, in some degree, in the way that God wants me to. I really don't know what to do; I've read the Bible several times and I try to merge that with what I intuitively *know* is right and go from there.

Anyway, to sum up, I like it when I'm forced to think about my spirituality, and your posts have done just that, so thank you. :-)

Attitude and tone in the message you don't have to thank me for. I'm actually getting a tad ticked at some of the rudeness that's popping up lately on FR -- especially when threads fracture apart over religion (the original Elizabeth Smart thread did that last night, it was awful, I tried to stand in the middle and post some things I thought might calm people down, but...massive infighting anyway, to the extent that the Admin Mod pulled the thread).

I have no idea if I'm a great person to live with. My roomate, who is one of those jack*sses who's read "a little bit" (you know what I mean, "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing", and so on) is just discovering such choice quotes as "opiate of the masses" and blather like that. Although I'm NOT letting him get away with just tossing those things out these days, I'm making him stop & think (I can seem to do that to him if I take long enough). The most important thing I've learned living with a roommate, though, is that I just have to let stuff go sometimes. He might be ticked some night and rip into me with insults, but I have no idea how his day at work went or what's prompting it, so I will let him vent, stay away, and then try to find out what's wrong with him later.

Thanks again for the kind words and the chance to further wrestle with the Big Questions.

Best,
CWL

GWARSH!!!

You humble me with your gracious and wonderful words.

You strike me as much more mature and a much wiser, more perceptive and balanced saint than I thought at first.

I know 65 year old pastors without your maturity. Not to let it go to your head, mind you!

Perhaps you've been put in touch with MERE CHRISTIANITY by C.S. Lewis.

His Space Trilogy--Perelandria sp? etc. is also a worthy read as is most anything else by him. THE PROBLEM OF PAIN comes to mind.

I concur so thoroughly with what you've said, I don't know much of anything to respond specifically to except to say AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!

And I suspect in my univ. days, I'd have considered you a great roommate. Though you might have had second thoughts.

I had a precious Japanese Hawaiian roommate. Our desks were opposite the door perpendicular against the windows and facing the walls against the walls on opposite window corners. I could be sitting at my desk with my back to his. He could come into the room from being out, sit down at his desk and begin to study having said nothing more than hi, if that. And he would know that I knew what he was thinking. That became intolerable for him after a year and a half, sadly. I've even lost track of him.

Probably I didn't learn early enough to let ENOUGH go. You're ahead of my learning curve at your age.

I don't really expect the rabid, narrow, rigid biased types hereon to alter their tiny, tidy arrogant positions much at all. But I do often enough feel that their blackwashing silly assertions need SOMEONE to stand up and be counted on this or that--for the sake of the lurkers, if nothing else.

I just consider myself a very flawed fellow struggler attempting to Love God wholly and my neighbors & others as myself . . . to do unto others . . .

I wouldn't wish my training program over 56 years on anyone. But God has known best and has rescued me from myself plenty often.

I do know that seeking after more of Christ's capacity to Love, more humility and more patience are all akin. One gets pushed through the manure spreader backwards repeatedly; dumped in vinegar; hung out to dry; ground to sub-atomic powder; all but blown to the 4 winds and agonizingly slowly reconstituted to begin the process again . . . with lots of other sorts of refiner's fires in between.

Mercifully, His Love, His Sacrifice is worth it.

Sometimes I moan that I'd prefer some relief here rather than added glory in eternity. But I know God know's best and that I'd likely feel quite otherwise once I landed in eternity.

It's an awesome and humbling blessing and answer to prayer that I may have played any small part in fostering constructive thought on your part. It makes it worth it all.

Yes, certainly our prayers make a difference. Though it's probably His mercy to shield us from full knowledge about how much of a difference. Pride is so deadly.

That He delighest to give us ANY PART in the affairs of the world or even of our own lives is an awesome picture of His Grace, Love and desire for intimacy with us.

He certainly doesn't NEED our 'help' at all. Quite the contrary! Sometimes, He probably spends a fair amount of energy protecting us from our own prayers prayed in ignorance or whatever. Though on that score, I'm super thankful for the option of praying "In The Spirit," in tongues as I can at least be confident HOLY SPIRIT KNOWS how best to pray; how best to put the best meaning to my humble gibberish--far better than my own even 'best' 'eloquence.' I don't see that as the complicated thing some make it. Certainly God is not going to force anyone's mouth to pray His words--except perhaps in extremely rare situations. Far better that we humble ourselves by in faith risking the 'gibberish' and in faith trust Holy Spirit to put the best meaning of our heart cries to the sounds in concert with God's will. So, that's why I pray mostly that way. Not sure why I got off on THAT!

Interestingly, even my human relations job in the U.S. Navy the last half of my 4 years was full of liberals--though ran by Chaplains. Afterwards, my San Diego PhD program was certainly full of liberals. I was the token a lot of things it seems, in both settings. I suppose it toughened my faith. Also taught me that I didn't need to be as big an arse as they were quite so often or quite so much. I probably could learn more on that score.

There's a lot of evidence that the dark is getting darker and the light getting lighter as we rush to the fulfillment of so many prophecies and history as we know it.

It appears that there are two opposing moves afoot. God is calling all who truly Love Him and truly seek to follow Him to abandon man's religious system in a growing list of ways including at least denominationalism. How He will end up setting up THE CHURCH UNIVERSAL IN HIS IMAGE AND GOVERNMENT, His style, way, manner, structure--HIS EMPHASIS ON RELGIAIONSHIP etc. remains to be seen. I suspect it will be BOTH looser and tighter than most expect--as contradictory as that may seem and be.

AND satan seems determined to use the man's/earthly/world system of RELIGION is busy bringing about an syncretistic homoginization of all religions into one world religion. Of course that will end up in worshipping satan but all seem blind to that in the wings, so far.

Anyway--it will be interesting to see those two trends evolve.

I usually encourage people to find a church or at least a home group where people are LOVING, REAL, KIND, VULNERABLE, NOT TOO PROUD AND WHO EARNESTLY SEEK TO READ THE WORD AND FOLLOW IT WITH GOD'S HELP AS BEST THEY CAN.

The perfect church is hiding in Heaven somewhere, I guess. Ain't found one here. Though I do expect CHRIST HIMSELF to by His Spirit perfect us AND His Church--guess that would follow given that we are His Church--increasingly close to totally as we draw closer to the end of history as we know it.

Anyway--rambling on--your post was a jug of water in a dry land; good news from a distant loved one--a real timely encouragement.

THANKS. GOD'S BEST TO YOU.

I'll send you my email by FREEPMAIL.