Posted on 03/08/2003 6:28:54 PM PST by laz17
That's not what it says. Your reference is from Genesis 12:3 and that specific promise was given to Abraham, not to his descendants.
In the eyes of God, Israel is the center of the world.
Nonsense. There is no scripture that even implies such. Again, you would make God a respecter of persons, which He is not.
The battle between Christ and Satan boils down to, bottom line, which of them shall rule from Jerusalem.
Again, wrong. There is no scripture that says so. At the end, Jerusalem, with the rest of the world, will be burned up. 2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
BTW, I don't mind engaging in honest discourse, but you really should refrain from personal insults unless you're tired of debating. If all you desire is to trade insults, then perhaps you should return to mere lurking vs. posting.
I have written what I have written here, and I will not debate. I have said all I need to say and there is nothing to add to it, and I will not be trapped into participating in endless circular arguments like the ones taking place on the Security Council. Let my words be accepted by those who are willing, and objected to by those who are not.
In the meantime, the lawless, godless mob cries out, "Give us Barabbas!" as they rally for Saddam Hussein and crucify the Christian George W. Bush.
Your dispensational silliness does not stand Biblical scrutiny, as is evidenced by the fact that you cannot produce a single scripture to support any of your contentions.
The entire Old Testament, really, is a diary of the relationship between God and Israel, and it's quite obvious that Israel is very special to Him. Several times, He describes Himself figuratively as a lover, and a jealous one at that. When Israel returns that love (meaning that its people walk in His ways and keep His commandments), He bestows blessings upon it. However, when Israel strays and cheats with illicit suitors (meaning that its people run off after false doctrines and gods), He is jealous and angry. And He chastises Israel to make them turn back to Him, for its own good.
Israel was, is, and will be central to God's plan for the salvation of humanity. He called Abraham out of Ur to found Israel. He gave the Law to humanity through Israel. He gave the Prophets to humanity through Israel. And finally, He gave Messiah to humanity through Israel. Then he scattered Israel all across the earth, so that His ways and His commandments would spread across the earth. And now, in End Times, He has brought Israel back to that spot on the map where He first established it, just as He promised He would. And End Time events will revolve around Israel, because as I said, Israel is the center of the world in God's eyes. Right now, He is allowing the Enemy and his forces to occupy the ground for the Temple until that time arrives which He has established for the reign of His Son on earth to begin. Israel is the prized real estate which Satan is trying to steal in its entirety to keep the Son from coming into His kingdom in Jerusalem. If you find this hard to accept, then it is because your heart is hard. And your words to me prove that your heart is hard.
You say I hurl personal insults because I said you were blind. Christ accused the self-righteous scribes and pharisees of being "fools and blind". Was He hurling personal insults? No, He was simply speaking the truth, as did I. I am not afraid of the heat in the kitchen, I simply will not argue with one who is obstinate, like you. It's obvious you've read the Bible. Please read it again, for you understand very little. The first step is to admit that to yourself, rather than to object to me.
Christ, through Israel is indeed the fulfillment of God's promise on earth. Through Israel, God has offered redemption to all, but pride is too heavy and burdensome a taskmaster to those who reject God's grace. The servants of the prince of this world know whom they serve and Whom they rage against, but they will not confess it with their mouths, for then would come confession and possibly repentance.
Laz, in the full armor, continue to stand!
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]."
If you knew Bible, you would know that the old testament deals with two dispensations: patriarchal and mosaical, not just mosaical.
Also, the mosaical dispensation was temporary, until the law of Christ was established. In fact, in Galatians 5:1 Paul warns about being entangled in the law of Moses which is "the yoke of bondage."
God loves Israel, but only will save them through Christ. Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
I don't know where you're getting your nonsense, but you still have not provided a single shred of evidence. So far, you've only misquoted a vague reference to the Bible. Pretty pathetic.
You erroneously said that the Bible says that God declares that He will curse all those who curse Israel and bless all those who bless it. (Where'd you get that from, BTW? Herbert Armstrong or Hal Lindsay?) I correctly pointed out that your misapplied reference is from Genesis 12:3 and that the specific promise was given to Abraham, not to his descendants. You still have not acknowledged your error.
You said that in the eyes of God, Israel is the center of the world. That is utter nonsense. There is no scripture that even implies such. In fact, God was frequently minded to destroy them. Num 14:12 is referring to His displeasure with the Jews: "I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they." God's blessings upon national Israel were conditional; never unconditional. Israel, as God's heritage, was temporary, until the church of Christ was established. Then, the only people God would have would be Christians, either Jewish Christians or Gentile Christians.
What you and people of your ilk are too blind to see is that Israel is no different to God than any other people. When Christ died on the cross, all men became equal. All men are esteemed equally in God's eyes, and the only way any man, including Jews, can be saved, is through faith and water baptism in Jesus Christ. (Acts 2:38)
You said, "The battle between Christ and Satan boils down to, bottom line, which of them shall rule from Jerusalem." I correctly pointed out Bible: 2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. At the end, Jerusalem, with the rest of the world, will be burned up.
You still have not substantiated your claim with anything other than your opinion. Sorry, that's not good enough.
2 Pet 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. (KJV)
"Have at it, folks. I anticipate flames from those who see things from a purely political perspective and not a religious one, but I hope that those who have eyes to see and ears to hear already know what I've described here."
No flames here. You articulated very elegantly what is truth. I have no doubt that you will understand this ... my political views as well as other views are shaped by what is written in the Bible.
Ah, Perfection will never fail you when it comes to wisdom. The Bible is the quintessential reference book for wisdom.
Any one who does flame you, demonstrates what you have just stated. Laz, when you post, would you please ping me? It's refreshing to read truth.
Isa.45:17
[17] But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
Eph.3:21
[21] Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Email me privately if you want clarification on a New Jerusalem ... . Truly the world will not end but rather be reconditioned. Revelation gives you a glimpse on what to expect.
Specifically this:
"12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Okay, here's the verses that clear up any confusion. The world will NOT end. It is clearly stated:
Isa.45:17
[17] But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
Eph.3:21
[21] Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
Email me privately if you want clarification on a New Jerusalem ... . Truly the world will not end but rather be reconditioned. Revelation gives you a glimpse on what to expect.
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