Churches Sound as One Voice (Do Not Initiate a War, They All Say)

The Commercial Appeal, Memphis ^ | March 2, 2003 | David Waters

[Broward Lion]

All of the mentioned churches are "dead" churches where almost no one is ever led to Christ. All but the Catholic Bishops are not against abortion. They all serve a dead god and therefore do not perceive justice as a virtue. Isn't it strange that the bishops are more stridently anti Bush that anti child molestor. Next they will ask us to take human rights suggestion fromthe Germans or military advice from the French.

[TommyDale]

How do you know that "thousands and thousands' of Iraqis will be killed (not murdered, by the way)? Very few innocents were even killed in the first Gulf War in 1991, and our weapons are much more accurate now.

[geedee]

I was talking about the innocent Iraqis Saddam has murdered. My "cuteness" didn't make it clear. I apologize.

What I was trying to do was ask the questions I would've liked to ask all the churches who oppose us taking out a mass-killing tyrant.

[Charles Henrickson]

Charles, Can you tell me why some churches stay in the ELCA even though their own stands directly conflict with them. As I said I attend an ELCA church that is much more conservative than the LCMS church I attended in another part of the country, not only on these issues, but in the service they conduct(by the book!). I just can't understand why they stay in--what holds a church back from moving to another synod? Even though my church differs from ELCA, I still feel conflicted by the fact they are a part of it. I'm asking this because of your unique position as a pastor.

The four largest church bodies that go by the name "Lutheran" in this country are these:

ELCA (Evangelical Lutheran Church in America)
LCMS (Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod)
WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Church)
ELS (Evangelical Lutheran Synod, aka "Little Norwegian")

On the whole, as a church body, the ELCA is extremely liberal, and the other three are generally conservative. When I say "liberal" and "conservative," I am referring first of all to their theological-confessional position in regard to doctrine and practice (e.g., biblical inspiration and authority, church fellowship, ordination of women, etc.), and secondarily to their stand on social-political issues (e.g., abortion, homosexuality, capital punishment, the use of the military, etc.)

But as you note, there can be many exceptions. There are individual congregations and pastors in the ELCA who are quite conservative, and there are individual congregations and pastors in the three "conservative" synods who are relatively liberal in one area or another. You may have congregations or pastors with a "split personality": They are "conservative" on social-political issues (they're pro-life, e.g.) but are not so confessional/conservative when it comes to churchly practice (they have jettisoned historic Lutheran liturgical practice, they practice open Communion, etc.).

Now you ask about a conservative/confessional congregation in the ELCA and whether or not, or for how long, to "stay in." That is always a tough decision. At the very least, you can register your official protest. This is sometimes called being in statu confessionis, in a state of confession.

I know some good, faithful, confessional Lutheran pastors in the super-extremely liberal Church of Sweden who have done just that--made official protest. But even now they are struggling with how or if they should "stay in." You see, they cannot get their theological candidates ordained if they oppose the ordination of women. And current pastors cannot be considered for bishop if they oppose the ordination of women. So now they are working toward the formation of a "mission province" within the Church of Sweden in which they could get their men ordained.

I don't have an easy answer for you with regard to staying in the ELCA. The ELCA has on the official level, as a church body, forfeited their claim to be Lutheran: They have compromised clear teaching on the doctrine of justification; they have entered into Communion fellowship with those who deny the Real Presence of Christ's Body and Blood in the Sacrament; etc. But you say you are in a still-faithful congregation. So the question then becomes: What will your congregation do?

What often holds congregations and pastors in a church body is what I call "institutional inertia." It's easier to just stay in. It takes a real effort to break free of the "gravitational pull." In a sense, that's good--it keeps one from making a hasty decision. But sometimes there may come a point when you must leave and find a church that is faithful to Scripture and Confessions.

[glory]

Thanks for your reply. I think the next few years will tell. The pastor who keeps the church as it is is approaching retirment..I am sure of it(he started as pastor of this church in 1978 and had worked previously so the math is tellling). I think where the church goes upon his retirement will be very telling.

We have also decided to not become members of the church for the time being. This decision definitely centers around who the church is tied to(ELCA).

We looked for LCMS close by--we weren't satisfied with the options and ones that were ok were too far of a drive. There was a mission church for LCMS in our area, however it seems to be at a standstill when the pastor left a couple years back. If you have any recommendations or can find anything out about that mission I would be eternally grateful.
Let me know.
thanks for your reply pastor

[glory]

Nope, I have looked on all sorts of literature and when they do charity things in association with other churches--nothing on this. I'm satisfied they are not, directly anyway. Like I said, we won't become members because of this issue. It's very hard not to have a "home" though. Our children are right around school age and we would like to be settled in a church.

[TommyDale]

Sorry I musunderstood your post. I am in agreement with you about the thousands and thousands of murders that SADDAM has committed. And he would kill more if he continues in power. A few more days and he will be gone.

[katnip]

My friends, neighbors and fellow citizens in those buildings and airplanes did not start this war...

[MarMema]

And we will not forget them.

[ladyinred]

This guy is not looking in the right places if he can't find a Church that agrees we should go to war. There are plenty of them out there. Some he listed are always against war, but then, he knew that.