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Author Frank Schaeffer to speak on his Orthodox faith
modbee.com ^ | February 22, 2003 @ 05:45:12 AM PST | AMY WHITE

Posted on 02/23/2003 12:27:57 AM PST by Destro

Edited on 04/13/2004 1:55:56 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

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To: crazykatz; OrthodoxPresbyterian
"Jealous"? Of what?

The likelihood of a man who has been blessed with every spiritual blessing in Christ (Ephesians 1:3ff.), who has been filled full in Christ, Who is the Substance (Colossians 2:10), who holds in his own free hands the God-breathed, complete, and fully-adequate Word of God (2 Timothy 3:15-17), being "jealous" of anyone who settles for a big, glittery sham and delusion...

...is about the same as the likelihood of a man with a 32 ounce steam being "jealous" of a bum munching on a plastic carrot.

Dan
What Is Biblical Christianity?

61 posted on 02/25/2003 6:46:06 AM PST by BibChr ("You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men" [Mark 7:8])
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To: BibChr
Funny in that in your search for "biblical christianity" you ignore the Orthodoxy those writers of the Gospels set in stone.

Maybe the musings and understandings of the Gospel by Northern Europeans of the last century is good enough for you, but if I do ever go for it I would go for true biblical Christianity, the people whose language was the key of the Gospels. I doubt men 1,800 years removed from the Source would get it more right than a peole whose culture and language was tool Christ's Apostoles chose as the basis for the Gospels.

Protestant "Biblical" Christians think they are recovering something that was lost and dig and dig and go back as far as they can to the original and all they do is uncover their hallowness and Orthodoxy's holiness. At least they learn Greek.

I believe Christ set up One Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church...and there is no other.

62 posted on 02/25/2003 7:06:40 AM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: TPartyType
I'm very glad you found the peace you were looking for in the Lutheran Church. I have friends who are Lutheran and my parents and families were (in Norway). I was brought up Episcopalian because it was the closest thing to the Lutheran church. I know that each person is designed by God in a unique, different way, with different personalities and perspectives so I also believe that they are attracted to different kinds of worship. The main thing is to believe in Jesus as the second person in the Trinity, the Father, and the Holy Spirit and what Jesus did on the cross for mankind. When we have received Him as Lord and Savior, we've done the important thing; then we go on to obedience, holiness, purity and all that other good stuff! Love, Maryxxx
63 posted on 02/25/2003 7:11:01 AM PST by Marysecretary
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To: Marysecretary
#63 is a great explication of "different strokes for different folks!" HA!

Pax

64 posted on 02/25/2003 7:16:22 AM PST by TPartyType
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To: Destro; OrthodoxPresbyterian
Some people actually wait until they know what they're talking about before they open their mouths in public. You might consider trying it, for a switch.

For my part, I've studied NT Greek for about thirty years. I find the NT itself is most helpful, but I also compare notes and usage from the classics through the papyrii and the Greek Christian writers.

I don't believe the Gospel was ever lost. Perhaps you're thinking of Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. I believe it was always right there, on the surface of the pages of the Bible.

And as far as all this chatter about 1800 years later and all... maybe you're thinking of the various Ortho's or Roman Catholics. They're great believers in (=insisters on) playing "telephone" with the Bible.

Not Christians, though. We don't rely on men writing 1800 years later, or 1500 years later... or 1000, or 500, or even 100 years later.

We rely directly on God's Word itself. Drives cultists and the otherwise enslaved absolutely nuts (as predicted; Galatians 4:29), but that's what being a Christian is: standing faithfully on the Word of God Himself. It'll steer you straight TO Christ, and PAST silly (at best) diversions like trying to chat up dead people, and all -- to say nothing of the time and energy that goes into trying to spin and "defend" the silly practices.

I cannot recommend it to you too highly.

Dan

65 posted on 02/25/2003 7:27:47 AM PST by BibChr ("You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men" [Mark 7:8])
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To: BibChr
The Orthodox rely only on what was written up front, not latter day interpretations. Who would be in a better position to know?

"Now people look at Orthodox and think it is just one more denomination," Schaeffer said. "But I look at it as unbroken continuity

From the laying of hands from the Apostles to their chosen bishops to the New Testament - unbroken continuity.

66 posted on 02/25/2003 8:08:37 AM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Destro; OrthodoxPresbyterian
The Orthodox rely only on what was written up front, not latter day interpretations. Who would be in a better position to know?

Who?

How about...anyone willing to let the Bible speak for itself, rather than shackling himself to the accumulated errors of centuries of fallible men?

For that softball, I owe you a nice latte' or something if we ever meet. (Gyro?) For now... thanks!

Dan

67 posted on 02/25/2003 8:20:14 AM PST by BibChr (Don't settle for four-hundred-and-thirty-seventh-hand when you can get the Real Deal!)
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To: TPartyType
Is that good or bad? I couldn't tell. M
68 posted on 02/25/2003 8:53:11 AM PST by Marysecretary
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To: Pining_4_TX
"You are playing with words here. One should never venerate or honor an object. All honor, veneration, glory, and worship belong to God alone. Icons are a violation of the second commandment."

I honor the American flag, and feel no shame in calling it Old Glory. I honor the Texas flag. I honor my mother and father (as God himself commands). I honor the men and women who founded this great country, and I also honor and venerate the martyrs of the Orthodox Church for the example they set. I think it is not Destro playing with words. I think it is you.
69 posted on 02/25/2003 8:58:49 AM PST by No Truce With Kings (The opinions expressed are mine! Mine! MINE! All Mine!)
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To: BibChr
Christ let the founders of the Church continue in error? Until the 20th century someone re-learned to re-read the Greek the Orthodox Church still speaks so they can re-understand the Gospels as they really are?

Those of today know more than the founding fathers who knew and where taught by the Apostles or new men who were taught by the Apsotles and had it explained to them first hand what the Gospels said?

Is the Nicean Creed still valid for this group you champion?

70 posted on 02/25/2003 9:03:40 AM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: The_Reader_David; George W. Bush
We are seeing a handful every few months from the Rc in our parish, already large and growing with lots of babies too.
71 posted on 02/25/2003 1:12:39 PM PST by MarMema
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To: BibChr
Just wait a few hundred years and see how beautiful is the church body created by men who presume they can read the Bible for itself without the "shackles" of the work of past biblical scholars, theologians and established practice. You and your ilk are bound to accumulate centuries of your own errors, and worse ones, I suspect, because you have the hubris to reject the wisdom of past ages. I should think a conservtive would know better.
72 posted on 02/25/2003 4:18:59 PM PST by TPartyType
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To: Marysecretary
I was just pointing out that the last sentence of your #39 says, pretty much the same as the body of #63, only #63 is stated with a lot more elegance!
73 posted on 02/25/2003 4:29:10 PM PST by TPartyType
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To: Destro
This is great stuff, very inspiring, even for a lapsed Orthodox Christian like me. The faith of converts to Orthodoxy is a sight to behold. They are so informed and passionate. It puts things into perspective. Thanks for posting!
74 posted on 02/25/2003 4:47:11 PM PST by drew
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To: TPartyType; OrthodoxPresbyterian
...men who presume they can read the Bible for itself....

Ah, yes. We Christians call these sorts "believers." Why? They believe God when He says that His word is for them, and not for some specialized class (cf. Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 2 Corinthians 1:1; Ephesians 1:1; etc. ad inf.). They can't be classed with those so "wise" that they know better than God, and take it out of the hands of His intended recipients, reserving it to their selected shapers and molders.

... without the "shackles" of the work of past biblical scholars, theologians and established practice.

This is so hard for a slave to understand.

I am free to consider seriously all who have labored over the Word, and to benefit from their wisdom. I am simply not shackled by their mistakes! God, speaking to His people through His word (see above), remains the judge.

So when an august individual like Chrysostom or Calvin illuminates a passage, I benefit from the light. But when they stray (as both do), and am not shackled to repeat their mistakes.

If I did, I might end up being chained to silly and anti-God practices like chasing after dead people; or to heresies, like adding my works to Christ's blood to win salvation.

You and your ilk are bound to accumulate centuries of your own errors, and worse ones, I suspect, because you have the hubris to reject the wisdom of past ages.

Yes I will, but that won't be the cause. The cause will be my own fallibility. That is why it is so wonderful that God never chained anyone to my interpretations, any more than He did to Justin Martyr's nor Papias'.

I should think a conservtive would know better

Maybe, maybe not. But a Christian knows to believe God. Slaves of Greece or Rome may do a 2 Timothy 3:5/Titus 1:16 on such passages as 2 Timothy 3:15-17, but a Christian reads it, studies it, understands it, praises God for it, and lives it.

You know, nothing external to you keeps you from knowing the freedom of life in Christ, as a child of God rather than the slave of a sect (Galatians 3:23-29). What Christ says to all, He says to you as well:

"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light"
Matthew 11:28-30 (ESV)
Nothing compares with the excellency of knowing the Lord Jesus Christ. Pride, stubbornness, tradition -- all rubble, compared to that knowledge (Philippians 3:7-11).

Dan
How Can I Know God?

75 posted on 02/25/2003 6:18:05 PM PST by BibChr ("If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples" [John 8:31])
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To: TPartyType; BibChr
This too is not new to Orthodoxy, TPartyType--This kind of theology resembles the Paulican heresy of old.
76 posted on 02/25/2003 6:24:15 PM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: All
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77 posted on 02/25/2003 6:25:38 PM PST by Bob J (Join the FR Network! Educate, Motivate, Activate!)
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To: BibChr; TPartyType; OrthodoxPresbyterian
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11583b.htm

Paulicians

Excerpts: Jesus' work consisted only in his teaching; to believe in him saves men from judgment. The true baptism and Eucharist consist in hearing his word, as in John, iv, 10. But many Paulicians, nevertheless, let their children be baptized by the Catholic clergy. They honoured not the Cross, but only the book of the Gospel. They were Iconoclasts, rejecting all pictures. Their Bible was a fragmentary New Testament. They rejected St. Peter's epistles because he had denied Christ. They referred always to the "Gospel and Apostle", apparently only St Luke and St. Paul; though they quoted other Gospels in controversy.

The whole ecclesiastical hierarchy is bad, as also all Sacraments and ritual. They had a special aversion to monks. Under the apostles and prophets were "fellow-workers" (synechdemoi) who formed a council, and "notaries" (notarioi), who looked after the holy books and kept order at meetings. Their conventicles were called, not churches, but "prayer-houses" (proseuchai). Harnack sums them up as "dualistic Puritans and Individualists and as "an anti-hierarchic Christianity built up on the Gospel, and Apostle, with emphatic rejection of Catholic Christianity" (Dogmengeschichte, II 528).

Since Gibbon the Paulicians have often been described as a survival of early and pure Christianity, godly folk who clung to the Gospel, rejecting later superstitions, who were grossly calumniated by their opponents. Conybeare (op. cit. ) thinks they were a continuation of the Adoptionists. Dr. Adeney calls them "in many respects Protestants before Protestantism" (The Greek and Eastern Churches, 219). This idea accounts for the fact that the sect has met among modern writers with more interest and certainly more sympathy than it deserves.

78 posted on 02/25/2003 6:39:14 PM PST by Destro (Fight Islamic terrorisim by visiting www.johnathangaltfilms.com)
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To: Pyro7480
I appreciate your posting on the Orthodox position against abortion. I have been aware of individual bishops and others who have made public proclamations. I sure hope we can get the Greek Orthodox Archbishop of North and South America to do the same.
79 posted on 02/25/2003 6:57:40 PM PST by eleni121
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To: Destro
Thanks for the awesome posting about abortion and the Orthodox church. As an Orthodox (born and bred) I am aware of the traditions and the beliefs of the church. My questions remains however: Why does the Church honor men like Sarbanes? Why doesn't the Archbishop (GO) make a proclamations like others do? Why doesn't the church take public important and moral Christian stands like some Protestants do - Falwell, etc? Why is the Patriarch more insterested in saving the earth than saving souls? When I ask these questions of the church hierarchy I get smiles and referrals but no answers.
80 posted on 02/25/2003 7:07:14 PM PST by eleni121
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