Posted on 02/06/2003 1:37:27 PM PST by clintonbaiter
They were both yankees who liked taxes, loved government spending, and had cult-like followings from avowed Marxists.
Back when Israel was ran by the peisthood, God imposed a 10% flat income tax. They look OK to me until they get wasteful. Southerners loved tariffs while they gave them an advantage over Indian cotton. How was the South's armies funded during the Civil War?
...loved government spending,...
To stop a rebellion. Armies have to be paid for.
and had cult-like followings from avowed Marxists.
How was Lincoln a Marxist? Jefferson Davis has a cult-like following from segregationists and slavers.
I thank God often for the opportunity to school our daughter at home and use *real* history books rather than revisionist socialist history manuals.
Part of The Lincoln's platform was spending them to enrich northern industrialists. Another part was designing the taxes themselves to enrich northern industrialists.
Southerners loved tariffs while they gave them an advantage over Indian cotton. How was the South's armies funded during the Civil War?
By a revenue tariff with a 13% average rate enacted in May 1861. The north, by contrast, enacted a protectionist tariff reaching average rates over 40%.
To stop a rebellion.
No. To enrich northern industrialists. Armies do have to be paid for, but The Lincoln enacted an agenda of corporate welfare, subsidies, and protectionist tariffs to line the pockets of the yankees with government funds and policy.
How was Lincoln a Marxist?
I did not say he was a Marxist. I said he had a cult-like following from Marxists, which is a historical fact. Marx himself adored Lincoln and considered him a hero to the revolution. Modern Marxists, such as James McPherson, adore him to this day.
LOL - Take a prozac and click HERE.
Of course. Impose taxes and take those receipts and give to the richest 1%. Did I mention you neo-Confederates agree with liberals more and more? Oh yeah, I did. Why don't you explain to me exactly how Lincoln's taxes went to the rich.
By a revenue tariff with a 13% average rate enacted in May 1861. The north, by contrast, enacted a protectionist tariff reaching average rates over 40%.
So would you say that Jefferson Davis loved taxes since one was imposed during his rebellion?
No. To enrich northern industrialists. Armies do have to be paid for, but The Lincoln enacted an agenda of corporate welfare, subsidies, and protectionist tariffs to line the pockets of the yankees with government funds and policy.
Explain to me how.
I did not say he was a Marxist. I said he had a cult-like following from Marxists, which is a historical fact.
Jesus has a cult-like following from 60's hippies, that doesn't mean he's a hippie or agrees with anything they say. Show me a cult of Marxists that praises Lincoln.
Marx himself adored Lincoln and considered him a hero to the revolution. Modern Marxists, such as James McPherson, adore him to this day.
What did they adore about him?
You make claims you can't back up. Par for the course for neo-Confederartes.
It seems you took offense at me outing someone who called the Constitution a "Pact With The Devil". I provided a direct link in that post to prove they had said it, just as I have in this one. What's the matter, do you consider the Constitution a "pact with the devil" too?
No, not really. Try "impose higher taxes on the country as a whole in order to drastically shift international trade away from america so that a select few yankee cronies of yours can get rich off the government"
Did I mention you neo-Confederates agree with liberals more and more?
You mentioned it, but you give no certainty on what grounds you make that assertion. Liberals love to impose higher taxes on the country as a whole to redistribute its benefits to their cronies and political allies. They also love protectionist tariffs. Seeing as The Lincoln agreed with both of those positions, and seeing as I oppose both, it is reasonable to conclude that your assertion is without merit.
Why don't you explain to me exactly how Lincoln's taxes went to the rich.
They didn't go to the rich. They went to a select few of his industrialist cronies who were making themselves rich off the government. Specifically, it worked like any protectionist tariff. When tariffs are low meaning that the international trade market is free, prices fall according to that market. When the government comes along and installs a tariff on international goods, their price goes up and the market shifts to the domestic industrialists recieving the tariff's benefits. This happens because the tariff cuts into the consumer surplus and redistributes it to three places. The first part is redistributed to the producer surplus. The second part is taken by the government where, under The Lincoln's policies, it was spent on subsidies and other government programs. The third is a dead weight loss from the tariff. I believe that should suffice for your request of specificity.
So would you say that Jefferson Davis loved taxes since one was imposed during his rebellion?
You are battling with straw men of your own creation. Taxes are tolerable at low rates and for revenue purposes. The 13% confederate tariff of May 1861 was among the lowest in the world at the time. The Lincoln's tariff, known as the Morrill Act, was among the highest.
Explain to me how.
See above.
Jesus has a cult-like following from 60's hippies
Really? Cause almost every 60's hippies I have ever had the misfortune to encounter, as well as their spokesmen, are godless athiests of a marxist political persuasion.
Show me a cult of Marxists that praises Lincoln.
Happily.
"The workingmen of Europe feel sure that, as the American War of Independence initiated a new era of ascendancy for the middle class, so the American Antislavery War will do for the working classes. They consider it an earnest of the epoch to come that it fell to the lot of Abraham Lincoln, the single-minded son of the working class, to lead his country through the matchless struggle for the rescue of an enchained race and the reconstruction of a social world" - Karl Marx, letter to Abraham Lincoln on behalf of the International Workingmen's Association, January 28, 1865 (located in Collected Works of Karl Marx, Volume 20, page 19)
What did they adore about him?
See for yourself in Marx's own words above.
I already showed you what Lincoln had in common with Wellstone. They both liked taxes, they both liked government spending, and they both had cult-like followings from marxists. You have since then attempted to discuss the details and extent of these three items with me, but you have yet to dispute any one of them.
Walt can take care of himself, I don't care what you say about him. You said that you agree that Lincoln was the beginning of the end. But I guess you came on this thread not to discuss the article but to disrupt.
So it turns out the part of my post that offended you was the part where I agreed with Wlat about Lincoln being the beginning of the end of Constitutional government. LOL - The one time I agree with waltrot on something and someone gets mad about it. Lincoln was the beginning of the end of our Constitutional government, everyone knows that, even Wlat. Do you deny it?
Explain to me how this worked.
You mentioned it, but you give no certainty on what grounds you make that assertion. Liberals love to impose higher taxes on the country as a whole to redistribute its benefits to their cronies and political allies. They also love protectionist tariffs. Seeing as The Lincoln agreed with both of those positions, and seeing as I oppose both, it is reasonable to conclude that your assertion is without merit.
Show me where Lincoln said the purpose of the war income tax was to distribute to the richest 1%. Do you stand by your claim that Lincoln imposed a 40% income tax and Davis a 13% income tax? The South loved protectionist tariffs while it helped them against Indian cotton so do you oppose the South in their temprorary love of these tariffs?
They didn't go to the rich. They went to a select few of his industrialist cronies who were making themselves rich off the government.
So all these taxes were earmarked for some poor business owners because Lincoln wanted so much to make them rich?
Specifically, it worked like any protectionist tariff. When tariffs are low meaning that the international trade market is free, prices fall according to that market. When the government comes along and installs a tariff on international goods, their price goes up and the market shifts to the domestic industrialists recieving the tariff's benefits. This happens because the tariff cuts into the consumer surplus and redistributes it to three places. The first part is redistributed to the producer surplus. The second part is taken by the government where, under The Lincoln's policies, it was spent on subsidies and other government programs. The third is a dead weight loss from the tariff. I believe that should suffice for your request of specificity.
So Lincoln's only purpose in supporting tariffs and an income tax was to make a few poor business owners rich? hmmm.... If Lincoln's support of tariffs was to make a few poor business owners rich, was the South's initial support of tariffs based on their want to make a few of their business owners rich also? That's the only purpose of a tariff and an income tax, to make sure that all the money goes to a few poor business owners so they won't be poor anymore?
You are battling with straw men of your own creation. Taxes are tolerable at low rates and for revenue purposes. The 13% confederate tariff of May 1861 was among the lowest in the world at the time. The Lincoln's tariff, known as the Morrill Act, was among the highest.
And Lincoln's sole aim for these tariffs was to make a few poor business owners rich? That's your theory, huh? Very interesting. Lincoln went through all that trouble and got assassinated for the benefite of some poor manufacturers. hmmm... Maybe the logic will come to me.
Really? Cause almost every 60's hippies I have ever had the misfortune to encounter, as well as their spokesmen, are godless athiests of a marxist political persuasion.
You've never heard of "long-haired friends of Jesus"?
"The workingmen of Europe feel sure that, as the American War of Independence initiated a new era of ascendancy for the middle class, so the American Antislavery War will do for the working classes. They consider it an earnest of the epoch to come that it fell to the lot of Abraham Lincoln, the single-minded son of the working class, to lead his country through the matchless struggle for the rescue of an enchained race and the reconstruction of a social world" - Karl Marx, letter to Abraham Lincoln on behalf of the International Workingmen's Association, January 28, 1865 (located in Collected Works of Karl Marx, Volume 20, page 19)
So Marx was a member of a Marx cult? hmmm... Marx praised Lincoln for ending slavery, it appears to me. Worthy praise, I would say. Since liberals love Jefferson, should we hate Jefferson like you hate Lincoln?
See for yourself in Marx's own words above.
For ending slavery. I don't see where Marx praised Lincoln for anything considered socialism.
Davis taxed also. I believe in a low flat income tax so I guess I'm a liberal like Wellstone too, huh?
They both liked taxes,...
Davis taxed also. Since you don't believe in taxes, how should our army be financed?
...they both liked government spending,...
Any government has to spend money. Since Davis taxed and spent, did he love government spending?
...and they both had cult-like followings from marxists.
Like I said, Jesus and Jefferson has followings from liberals. Show me a modern Marxist cult that praises Lincoln as their hero.
You have since then attempted to discuss the details and extent of these three items with me, but you have yet to dispute any one of them.
They're too general and subjective. The U.S. raised revenue to win the Civil War and so you say Lincoln loved taxing and spending. It has always taken money to win wars so your claims are meaningless. The Confederacy did exactly the same thing so your claims are meaningless in that way too. And a Marx praised Lincoln for freeing the slaves. Well, I'd hope that people of every political stripe would praise Lincoln for that. I guess the neo-Confederate strain can't though and will even go so far as to criticize others for this praise.
Thanks to Lincoln, the Constitution was amended to end slavery thereby disregarding the part about slaves. This was a major change and I have said before that the Constitution became more perfect after the end of slavery. Do you think the Constitution was better before the amendment to end slavery?
Already did in the previous post. Did you not see the stuff about shifting the consumer surplus away and redistributing it?
Show me where Lincoln said the purpose of the war income tax was to distribute to the richest 1%.
We are not talking about income taxes here. We are talking about the dominant type of taxation used in the 1860's, the tariff.
Do you stand by your claim that Lincoln imposed a 40% income tax and Davis a 13% income tax?
I never claimed anything of the sort. Those were the average rates of the TARIFFS of each government as I clearly identified when I cited them. You simply did not read my post and somehow have come to the conclusion that it referenced non-existant income taxes.
So all these taxes were earmarked for some poor business owners because Lincoln wanted so much to make them rich?
No. You are not reading what I post. The taxes were redistributed by way of a protective tariff to the participants in the protected industries. That is what tariffs do. It is also why labor unions and certain industrialists alike love them to this day. They reap a huge part of the consumer surplus' redistribution after a tariff is enacted. That this occurs after a tariff is a matter of economic fact.
So Lincoln's only purpose in supporting tariffs and an income tax was to make a few poor business owners rich?
First off, out of what hole did you pull the income tax? Nobody said anything about an income tax here. My issue is with the tariff. And in answer to your question regarding of those tariffs, the purpose of them was to make the participants in certain select and regionally defined industries wealthy on the back of the country as a whole. Those tariffs were enacted to "protect" those industries from foreign competition. When this is done, the protected industry gains but rest of us all have to pay for it.
was the South's initial support of tariffs based on their want to make a few of their business owners rich also?
No, because the south did NOT support the tariff act. When the Morrill bill came up before the House in 1860, every single congressman from a CSA state save one voted AGAINST it.
And Lincoln's sole aim for these tariffs was to make a few poor business owners rich?
You are still jousting with straw men, though I am not aware if the reason is intentional or induced by incompetance. As I have explained repeatedly, protectionist tariffs benefit the participants of the protected industry. In the north's case, the protected industries were those of the Republican Party's northern industrialist cronies. They were not necessarily poor cronies, or rich cronies. But the policy of protectionist tariffs that the north adopted did extend its protection to those industries. They therefore gained financially at a greater cost to the nation as a whole. In a way, they were 1860's versions of welfare handouts and corporate welfare handouts.
That's your theory, huh?
It is not theory that protected industries will reap the benefits of a protectionist tariff at a greater cost to the rest of us. That is a matter of economic fact.
You've never heard of "long-haired friends of Jesus"?
Such types tend to be idolaters and blasphemers with interests is materialistic communism and who have no genuine use for Jesus.
So Marx was a member of a Marx cult?
Only its founder.
hmmm... Marx praised Lincoln for ending slavery, it appears to me.
Did you not read the quote? If so, I suppose that is par for the course with you. Try reading it again though. Marx's praise for The Lincoln was to assert that he set into motion an "era of ascendancy...for the working class." In marxian terms, that means the road to communism. Read the quote, this time carefully:
"The workingmen of Europe feel sure that, as the American War of Independence initiated a new era of ascendancy for the middle class, so the American Antislavery War will do for the working classes. They consider it an earnest of the epoch to come that it fell to the lot of Abraham Lincoln, the single-minded son of the working class, to lead his country through the matchless struggle for the rescue of an enchained race and the reconstruction of a social world" - Karl Marx, letter to Abraham Lincoln on behalf of the International Workingmen's Association, January 28, 1865 (located in Collected Works of Karl Marx, Volume 20, page 19) Since liberals love Jefferson
They do? Most liberals I know of despise Jefferson as a slave-owning western-civilization minded white guy. They despise him in this way just as the despise most of the founding fathers.
For ending slavery. I don't see where Marx praised Lincoln for anything considered socialism.
Then you did not read the quote. Here it is again. The important parts are in bold to assist your comprehension:
"The workingmen of Europe feel sure that, as the American War of Independence initiated a new era of ascendancy for the middle class, so the American Antislavery War will do for the working classes. They consider it an earnest of the epoch to come that it fell to the lot of Abraham Lincoln, the single-minded son of the working class, to lead his country through the matchless struggle for the rescue of an enchained race and the reconstruction of a social world" - Karl Marx, letter to Abraham Lincoln on behalf of the International Workingmen's Association, January 28, 1865 (located in Collected Works of Karl Marx, Volume 20, page 19)
Now, I do not know what your previous familiarity with Marx's writings may be though I do advise them to any fellow conservative as a central part of the "know your enemy" principle. When reading them there are a few things you should always know. Marx uses many buzz words, such as "working class" and "working men." When mentions the "working men" rising up, he's talking about a communist revolution. When he mentions an "era" of the "working men," he's talking about an era of communism. When he mentions redefining the social order of the world, he's talking about redefining it toward the communist model. As you should be able to see with ease, he uses all of these terms in his praise for The Lincoln.
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