Detroit Officer Severs Woman's Finger

The Detroit Free Press ^ | January 7, 2003 | JIM SCHAEFER

[AK2KX]

A Detroit police officer with a knife cut off the finger of a 45-year-old woman he was trying to handcuff in a parking lot on 8 Mile.

The police, who were in plainclothes, said she was resisting arrest. The woman, Joni Gullas of Detroit, said Monday that she thought she was being carjacked.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

The policeman involved said the woman smelled of alcohol, and she was exiting a bar at 2:30 am. Based on her actions, I believe him, and note her proximity to and recent exit from a place where people go to become tipsy as convincing circumstantial eveidence.

How much more evidence do you need? I guess you think she was just drinking ice water and diet cokes at the bar with her friends until 2:30 am.

And why do you cop-bashers always assume the cops are lying?

Its pathetic to see people on FR acting as criminal mollycoddlers. I suppose your ideal society would see our prison doors swung wide open and our cops disarmed. Lovely vision.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

He didn't intend to cut her finger off. She lost it because she was resisting arrest and he was trying to subdue her. Them's the breaks for not cooperating with peace officers.

Also, the poster I was responding too asserted the officer was "waving a weapon around" and that this was justification for her action. He wasn't, and she was not justified, and you are wrong.

[SerpentDove]

>>Its pathetic to see people on FR acting as criminal mollycoddlers. I suppose your ideal society would see our prison doors swung wide open and our cops disarmed.
Lovely vision.<<

You're a lousy debater. You have to produce the above simple-minded argument, (which is basically a cheap smear) to defend cops cutting off body parts.

If you think it is justifiable for police to cut off body parts of suspects, even (for the sake of argument) that this woman was doing all you say, then you can live in that kind of hellhole if you want to.

However, people with decency disagree with you.

[SerpentDove]

>>He didn't intend to cut her finger off. She lost it because she was resisting arrest and he was trying to subdue her. Them's the breaks for not cooperating with peace officers. <<


You have a very twisted value system. You need serious help.

A word of advice: don't ever go into law enforcement and do anything approaching this to anyone I know or love. You will immediately suffer the consequences.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Well Mr. People of Decency, is it decent to be belligerent to cops asking you for ID, to yell at them, to back your car away from them, and to violently resist arrest? I think not.

And again, the cop didn't purposefully cut her finger off. She lost it while he was trying to cuff her and she was resisting. All sorts of bad things can happen while wrestling with a cop trying to cuff you like scuffs, scrapes, gashes, broken bones, etc. That's why you should just hand over your ID when requested by the police to demonstrate that you are law abiding and respectful of police officers.

You are certainly not one in a position to complain about arguments being made here since you have yet to produce one other than a reflexive "cop - bad, women losing finger - good". The policeman's report indicates he was justified in what he did to arrest her, and what we know from her doesn't include any dispute as to material events. On what basis do you find the cop in the wrong here other than a claim that he is lying, for which you have no proof at all?

[highbottom]

There are way too many police officers and laws. Resulting in a society, which outlaws basic freedoms and privacy. Like sitting in your car. In an ideal society, we would all be free to police and arm ourselves against unlawful behavior. The cop was met with outrage at his intrusion. Unfortunately the victim is not able to articulate her true instinct to ward off an intruder.

[SerpentDove]

You are the type of person who would be a danger to society should you join the force. A Nazi type.

If you believe cops are justified in cutting off body parts to cuff a suspect, you are one sick bastard.

It's as simple as that.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

A word of advice: don't ever go into law enforcement and do anything approaching this to anyone I know or love. You will immediately suffer the consequences.

Immediately suffer the consequences? What, you'd come and hunt me down as soon as you heard whatever sob story your wife put together to justify this sort of behavior? Oh please tough-guy! Lets see you really stand up from behind your computer screen. Why don't you just come and get me now while I am a civilian and do it now! I live in Fox Chase in NE Philadelphia. Come on and fight! Come find me! You are obviously all worked up into a frothing rage over this! Just come take out your anger now! You'll feel much better - trust me!

You sound like you have a death wish. Not surprising, given you apparent loathing for the police. I wouldn't encourage you to act on those feelings. The police will hunt you down like a dog if you go on some misguided crusade against them and act out with prejudicial force against them because of some perceived slight - and you'd deserve it too. What are you trying to do man? Are you angling for a Darwin award? Do you have a deathwish to talk like that? Everyone I've ever heard of who acts "tough" like you ends up very dead. Take that as a lesson. You aren't John Rambo.

Again, she lost her finger becasue she struggled with him, after she refused to let him cuff her, after she attempted to back her car away from him, after she refused to show ID. 4 strikes and you are way out. The loss of her finger tip is unfortunate, but it is all because of her actions, not the cop's. The cop was trying to subdue someone violently resisting arrest by getting her into hand-cuffs. He wasn't beating her up or threatening her with deadly weapons. If she would just have cooperated, she probably would have been left to drive off with her friends. I'm sure she is feeling pretty stupid right now, as should you for defending such stupid behavior and issuing threats to the police.

You are going off the deep-end. Issuing threats to people you don't even know over the internet is a sure sign of that.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

In a sane society, people wouldn't drink alcohol and then get into large metallic objects and drive them around populated areas like this woman was attempting to do. And a sane society wouldn't have libertines such as you are presenting yourself here.

So we shouldn't have laws against driving drunk? And no cops either? Ooooo ... you'll get real far with that position.

[SerpentDove]

If you did this to someone I know or love, you would pay for it. It's not a threat, since you haven't done it nor have you threatened to.

But if you mutilated someone I loved, with the facts in evidence in this case, rest assured, you would pay the consequences.

[csvset]

The policeman's report indicates he was justified in what he did to arrest her, and what we know from her doesn't include any dispute as to material events.

Hmmmmm... Better check and see what the Detroit PD is saying. It doesn't look good.

Officer May Be Charged for Severing Woman's Finger

Officer Under Fire For Amputating Finger Department Concerned Officer Violated Policies

A video statement by the victim is available at the second link. The DPD's statement sounds rather damning. This should be fun to watch and see how it pans out.

[neutrino]

Is it just me, or does it seem like we're becoming more and more of a police state? Over the years I've had many police friends in a variety of departments, and none of them would ever have tolerated such behavior...

[demosthenes the elder]

When knives are banned, only cops will have fingers...

oh, damn!

[SerpentDove]

>>"The department has no policy or procedures that would cause an officer to use a knife to issue an arrest.

We don't issue the knives. We don't conduct training that would involve a knife in arresting a subject. We also have some concerns with regard to a person being arrested on a traffic stop by a plain clothes officers that uniform cars were not called for identification purposes," said Detroit Police Deputy Chief Gary Brown. <<

Shhhh! Don't tell Herr Herrmann. He has somehow deluded himself that this is justified police work, not a criminal act. Who cares if everybody else, including the police, says it is wrong?

[Hermann the Cherusker]

The only thing simple here is your mind. Do you have any arguments that don't involve threats, bluster, and ad hominem? Apparently not, since you've sunk now to yelling Nazi. Why not shout racist too, and be done with it?

Apparently you can't grasp that nobody is justifying cutting off fingers. The woman had her finger cut off becuase of an unfortunate incident she provoked. Bad things happen when you start violent confrontations with Police Officers who suspect you might be doing something bad.

One final time, the cop did not intend or purposefully cut her finger off. Why can't you grasp that? He was trying to get her wrist out of her large coat so she could be cuffed. An accident occurred that is HER fault because she was struggling and resisting and refused to allow herself to be subdued (classic symptoms of drunken or drug induced rage). That's all I'm saying.

Producing ID hurts a whole lot less than being injured wrestling with large, strong armed police officers. I guess you prefer being churlish to cops to cooperation.

And I'll bet you'd be the first to call the cops up too if you really did need them for your own protection. Always lovely double standards like that among your crowd. The cops are terrible jerks until YOU need them.

Cops get to risk their lives for diddly squat pay, suffer abuse from citizens like yourself, and have to face recalcitrant low-lifes while trying to keep society's turmoil to an acceptable level or face the heat from the politicians. They get questioned at every turn and get called liars and worse in and out of court as they attempt to help the DA make prosecutions and avoid IA deciding they used to much force against some common criminal and then punishing them. Its a wonder we have any at all.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Its going to pan out just like Rodney King. She'll walk, the policeman will go to jail and be financially ruined. More encouragement for the thin blue line.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

You want somewhere that operates like your ideal society - move to Somalia! No cops, no laws, no government! Just brutal tribal warfare.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

Again, I'm strongly warning you, that you need to drop the bluster. Everyone who has ever tried to make the cops "pay for it" may get away with shooting a cop, but they end up dead themselves. I'm sure your wife and children don't need a corpse in the graveyard or a criminal in prison instead of a father at home. Think of what you are saying!

We are, I think, a society of laws, not men out for blood vengence. We left all that behind about a millenium or two ago. You know, turn the other cheek and all that?

[SerpentDove]

Does it mean nothing to you that the Detroit Police have asked the prosecutor to bring criminal charges against the officer?

Are the cops engaging in "cop-bashing" too?

[Henrietta]

Glad to see the pro Police State contingent is out in force!

I can think of bigger lines of crap, Hermann. Things like:

The police are our friends.
Police never lie in police reports.
If a suspect is beat up in police custody, it's because he/she deserved it.

I could go on, but you get the idea.

What made this plain-clothes cop just think he could go up to some motorist and demand that she produce ID? Would you want your wife to roll down her window for any guy that came up and claimed to be a police officer?

Sure the cops *claim* that this woman smelled of alcohol, and they claim that she tried to back up and leave the scene. They can make all the claims that they want, but can't prove any of it; all they have to corroborate their stories are each others' lies.

So thanks, Hermann, but I think you're the one selling crap here.